Friedman's 31 thoughts Post trade deadline edition

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

These aren't the only options though.

These are the only options if you're a badly run organization.

That's how Chicago ends up with Seabrook and how the senators end up with Bobby Ryan.

At the end of the day you can't escape bad ownership which is where we find ourselves with this feanchise, which is really a shame, because the flames big time salaries are structured in such a way that you could easily turn this into a 3 or 4 year rebuild and still win with tkachuk if you wanted to.

There's just no desire from the top of the organization to be a real contender.

See above ... not a Flames issue.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Why not just keep that space open, sell even more pieces and have the cap available to re-sign tkachuk with a new core group in 4 years time?

Does Tkachuk stick around in 4 years if the Flames have been a non-playoff/bubble team during that time?

[MrMike]

Do we have any predictions of how much the salary cap is expected to rise in the next few years?

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Bingo

We don't see a lot of ownership groups walk away from core stars instead of resigning them.

Tavares and Stamkos were taken to UFA, Tavares was lost.

Many teams throw money at guys and keep them regardless of how old they'll be at the end of the term ... Karlsson being the most recent insane example.

The Kings have Doughty and Kopitar on nasty contracts, Toews contract certainly pushing the envelope, Price, Benn.

This really isn't a Flames issue.

The Tavares one is an interesting example - as the Islanders have generally had more success without him. Losing him hasn't proved to be the disaster that it was projected to be.

[Canada 02]

Originally Posted by MrMike

Do we have any predictions of how much the salary cap is expected to rise in the next few years?

Lebrun said he heard from some NHL board members who estimated $82.5-83.5M for next season

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Bingo

We don't see a lot of ownership groups walk away from core stars instead of resigning them.

Tavares and Stamkos were taken to UFA, Tavares was lost.

Many teams throw money at guys and keep them regardless of how old they'll be at the end of the term ... Karlsson being the most recent insane example.

The Kings have Doughty and Kopitar on nasty contracts, Toews contract certainly pushing the envelope, Price, Benn.

This really isn't a Flames issue.

I get what you're saying, but if anything I feel like you're establishing why the Flames shouldn't emulate what are clear missteps.

The situation in Los Angeles ended up costing Lombardi his job. We will see what happens with Doug Wilson this year.

Stan Bowman is on Shakey ground.

Meanwhile, the Islanders are better without Tavares than they were with him...

What makes it a Flames issue is that all the teams and players you listed have had more success and were thus more justified in those decisions than the Flames have had and would be.

Even Jamie Benn, who is on a bad deal, finished within spitting distance of 90 points twice, was a point per game in the playoffs and was a dominating physical presence when he signed his contract.

The flames issue isn't winning cups and signing their team captains to inflated deals, the flames issues is holding onto guys that have never won anything if it keeps them at 10th in the west instead of 13th.

Obviously this year isn't over yet and the flames very well could end up doing some damage once they get to the playoffs, but short of a conference final appearance or a cup, it will be extremely hard to justify supplementing this group of players with anyone. It would simply be a bad decision to stave off being a bad team and getting a high pick that could possibly be the catalyst for the team actually being good again.

I'm not saying let Gaudreau walk, I'm saying be proactive for once and look at the sum total this roster and management group has accomplished and go from there. Trading Gaudrau and then paying hall 40% more to do the same job is just treading water.

I'll be first in line to eat Crow if this team does anything, I'll even bring my own spoon. But let's not pretend this group is a 10 million dollar Taylor hall and a selection of draft picks away from contender status with a 37 year old Giordano leading the way.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Does Tkachuk stick around in 4 years if the Flames have been a non-playoff/bubble team during that time?

It's tough to account for critical managerial errors like bridging tkachuk in order to get 5 goals from Frolik.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

It's tough to account for critical managerial errors like bridging tkachuk in order to get 5 goals from Frolik.

That's not a bridge contract.

[Strange Brew]

I am fine if you want to debate trading Gaudreau in a deal that makes the team better now or in the future. That should be on the table along with many other moves.

But signing Hall to a gut busting long term, big $ contract? Why? I couldn’t think of a move more likely to keep the Flames mired in mediocrity or worse. Use that money to extend Tkachuk and Mangiapane for example. Build the team the right way through the draft, trades that address needs and value FA signings.

Teams that blow their brains out in free agency rarely are happy with the result.

[Robbob]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

A series with VGK is most likely to go seven games, with everyone winning their home-dates in Games 1–6. Both teams struggle badly in the other one's rink.

Which is great, knowing that we still play them two times and both are in Calgary.

[Vinny01]

What I like about the Hall in, Gaudreau our, high picks/top prospects in is it resets the window. Hamilton was the next big extension the Flames had to deal with but the team misers the playoffs 2 of the 3 years he was here and swept in the other. He was moved for 2 younger assets that signed 6 year deals. The Flames looked to be the co tender they hoped in year one of that trade.

This year they are taking a step back. Gaudreau is the next of the main core to be up for a contract (Tkachuk is RFA). Iff this team fails to won a round of the playoffs they might look to reset their window again. This time they potentially have the scenario where an elite pending free agent has desire to play in Calgary. They have the ability to target a top prospect or high draft pick that would be a building block to keep this team talented beyond a 3 year window.

[bax]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

What I like about the Hall in, Gaudreau our, high picks/top prospects in is it resets the window. Hamilton was the next big extension the Flames had to deal with but the team misers the playoffs 2 of the 3 years he was here and swept in the other. He was moved for 2 younger assets that signed 6 year deals. The Flames looked to be the co tender they hoped in year one of that trade.

This year they are taking a step back. Gaudreau is the next of the main core to be up for a contract (Tkachuk is RFA). Iff this team fails to won a round of the playoffs they might look to reset their window again. This time they potentially have the scenario where an elite pending free agent has desire to play in Calgary. They have the ability to target a top prospect or high draft pick that would be a building block to keep this team talented beyond a 3 year window.

My biggest issue with this is that by “resetting the window” are you actually doing anything other than keeping the team in a middling, mediocre state? Signing Hall and trading Gaudreau changes the team, I’m not sure it improves it.

The extra assets are nice, but unless you’re trading them for current players they are still lottery tickets.

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by bax

My biggest issue with this is that by “resetting the window” are you actually doing anything other than keeping the team in a middling, mediocre state? Signing Hall and trading Gaudreau changes the team, I’m not sure it improves it.

The extra assets are nice, but unless you’re trading them for current players they are still lottery tickets.

I think I hearken back to Jiri's (Bingo's?) point that, with the Flames ownership, rebuild is not an option so signing Hall/trading Gaudreau at least gets you some "futures" while staying competitive. I agree that it is much better than just signing JG to an extension. Given that we must always strive to finish 8th, getting Hall "for free" and getting assets for JG, seems to be the least bad option.

[868904]

Originally Posted by bax

My biggest issue with this is that by “resetting the window” are you actually doing anything other than keeping the team in a middling, mediocre state? Signing Hall and trading Gaudreau changes the team, I’m not sure it improves it.

The extra assets are nice, but unless you’re trading them for current players they are still lottery tickets.

If you sign Hall and trade Gaudreau you replace your top 6 winger with a similar player AND you add a younger top 6 forward and likely other pieces.

How is that NOT an improved state?

I really don't understand the argument from some of you here. Hall and Gaudreau are a wash. You get to keep a top left winger AND other assets.

It's just simple math.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by 868904

If you sign Hall and trade Gaudreau you replace your top 6 winger with a similar player AND you add a younger top 6 forward and likely other pieces.

How is that NOT an improved state?

I really don't understand the argument from some of you here. Hall and Gaudreau are a wash. You get to keep a top left winger AND other assets.

It's just simple math.

Because of the high likelihood the Hall contract will be crippling and the player will under perform.

It’s not a package. You need to look at each deal individually IMO.

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Because of the high likelihood the Hall contract will be crippling and the player will under perform.

It’s not a package. You need to look at each deal individually IMO.

Given our mandate, there are 3 theoretical options:

1) Re-sign Gaudreau in 2 years
2) Let Gaudreau walk in 2 years
3) Sign Hall, trade Gaudreau

I would say (3) is the least bad option.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

Given our mandate, there are 3 theoretical options:

1) Re-sign Gaudreau in 2 years
2) Let Gaudreau walk in 2 years
3) Sign Hall, trade Gaudreau

I would say (3) is the least bad option.

I hear you.

It’s just a difficult mandate to defend. For a team that aspires to not much more than just making it in, it’s a shame we’re not better at it.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Does Tkachuk stick around in 4 years if the Flames have been a non-playoff/bubble team during that time?

Tkachuk actually only has two years until he can decide to force himself to UFA with an arbitration award.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

Given our mandate, there are 3 theoretical options:

1) Re-sign Gaudreau in 2 years
2) Let Gaudreau walk in 2 years
3) Sign Hall, trade Gaudreau

I would say (3) is the least bad option.

I would say 1 is the best option. 3 is a non starter, trading Gaudreau if necessary is fine, adding Taylor Hall is not.

[Roof-Daddy]

People seem to say many of the same things about Hall now as they said about Kessel a few years ago when he was available. If Hall really wants to sign in Calgary its a gift IMO, especially if he'll do it for around a $9 million cap hit or so.

If he was a right shot and/or a C it would obviously be better, but this organization can't let a gift like that get away. It might give this core the support they desperately need.

How many career 0.9 ppg, former MVPs would even give Calgary the time of day as a UFA?

The fact that some can be so adamantly against is puzzling to me, unless they are extremely superstitious or something.