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Old 02-25-2020, 04:02 PM   #141
BigErnSalute_16
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Originally Posted by Drunk Uncle View Post
Statistically, the only bottom pairing d-man that Bennett helped was Davidson…

Lucic-Ryan-Dube-Stone: +3
Lucic-Bennett-Dube-Stone: -2
Lucic-Ryan-Dube-Yelesin: even
Lucic-Bennett-Dube-Yelesin: -1
Lucic-Ryan-Dube-Kylington: +4
Lucic-Bennett-Dube-Kylington: even
Lucic-Ryan-Dube-Davidson: -1
Lucic-Bennett-Dube-Davidson: +1

I’m not saying Bennett has been bad. He looked good and is a legitimate option at center with Lucic and Dube especially if Ryan isn't available. I'm just contending that going back to Ryan is a logical choice and not one that should be met consternation from fans because Bennett has somehow performed better on that line. The simple truth is he hasn't. Not by the eye test or statistically for me.
I think the argument a lot of us are making is, this is a player who has struggled mightily with consistency and confidence, a lot of which has to do with how he has been deployed by the team. And that it isn't very logical to take away his role as soon as he starts having lasting success.

Add that to the fact I believe Ryan would be able to get more out of his linemates while centering the 4th line than Bennett will as Jankowski's winger.

So I see your point but in my opinion the logical thing to do would be keeping the successful Lucic-Bennett-Dube line together while improving the 4th line more with Derek Ryan
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Old 02-25-2020, 04:09 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by Drunk Uncle View Post
Statistically, the only bottom pairing d-man that Bennett helped was Davidson…

Lucic-Ryan-Dube-Stone: +3
Lucic-Bennett-Dube-Stone: -2
Lucic-Ryan-Dube-Yelesin: even
Lucic-Bennett-Dube-Yelesin: -1
Lucic-Ryan-Dube-Kylington: +4
Lucic-Bennett-Dube-Kylington: even
Lucic-Ryan-Dube-Davidson: -1
Lucic-Bennett-Dube-Davidson: +1
You posted a whole bunch of numbers, but they say little.

1) Icetime is not equal. An even in 12:28 minutes of icetime (w/ Kylington) can't be compared to 91:49.

2) The sample size for goal events is miniscule and ultimately useless. You're talking about events like when Dillon Dube threw a pizza up the middle of the ice to the other team, or when Yelesin's shot got blocked and the other team was off to the races on a breakaway. Things... outside the control of most skaters on the ice.

3) the specific stretch where the Bennett line was assembled was without Mark Giordano. This has a trickle down effect. Mike Stone was playing much tougher minutes in the latter sample than he was in the former sample. Stone was way in over his head. Andersson and Kylington were also separated.

4) The sample size for shot metrics is a lot closer to usable than the goal events. And they actually favour Bennett:

Lucic-Bennett-Dube
37:04
51.52% shot attempts
50.68% expected goals
56.76% scoring chances

Lucic-Ryan-Dube
269:34
48.59% shot attempts
50.81% expected goals
46.75% scoring chances

Lucic-Ryan-Dube w/o Giordano
210:37
46.15% shot attempts
46.91% expected goals
45.26% scoring chances


Lucic-Ryan-Dube w Giordano
58:57
56.25% shot attempts
65.06% expected goals
51.79% scoring chances

Yes, there's reason to think that line might be better with Bennett - his strength offsets Dube's lack thereof whereas Ryan and Dube form a physically weak pairing. Especially since we've yet to see how that line could do with Giordano.

And even if the line were better with Ryan there is more value to the team to develop and empower a young player than there is to put their eggs into the basket of a 33 year old. Instead we've moved him back to the 4th line left wing. It's myopic.

Quote:
I’m not saying Bennett has been bad. He looked good and is a legitimate option at center with Lucic and Dube especially if Ryan isn't available. I'm just contending that going back to Ryan is a logical choice and not one that should be met consternation from fans because Bennett has somehow performed better on that line. The simple truth is he hasn't. Not by the eye test or statistically for me.
Even if you want to operate on this logic, most of the consternation is about Bennett on Jankowski's wing with a player like Rieder. There is no benefit to this.

But again, your goals-based analysis is severely limited to a small sample size.
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Old 02-25-2020, 04:21 PM   #143
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Pregame links
http://sportsstats.cbc.ca/hockey/nhl...summary_2.html
http://sportsstats.cbc.ca/hockey/nhl...preview_2.html
https://scores.nbcsports.com/nhl/pre...1&home=1&vis=3
https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/games/2155362
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Old 02-25-2020, 04:30 PM   #144
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Who speaks Swedish in here? My buddy (born here, knows only enough to speak to grandma a bit) is saying abbreviating the name to Gus may not be the best. That is apparently a nasty cuss word?
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Old 02-25-2020, 04:31 PM   #145
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Who speaks Swedish in here? My buddy (born here, knows only enough to speak to grandma a bit) is saying abbreviating the name to Gus may not be the best. That is apparently a nasty cuss word?
Gus Van Sant in shambles
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Old 02-25-2020, 04:32 PM   #146
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Fan 960 reporting Gio is not in the warm up, so presumably not playing tonight
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Old 02-25-2020, 04:34 PM   #147
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Fan 960 reporting Gio is not in the warm up, so presumably not playing tonight
Great. Does that mean the Shillington Mistake Machine is in?
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Old 02-25-2020, 04:37 PM   #148
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Stone in.

Calgary Flames @NHLFlames
#Flames lines during warmup:

Gaudreau - Monahan - Lindholm
Tkachuk - Backlund - Mangiapane
Lucic - Ryan - Dube
Bennett - Jankowski - Rieder

Hanifin - Andersson
Brodie - Stone
Forbort - Gustafsson
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Old 02-25-2020, 04:38 PM   #149
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No Gio

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Old 02-25-2020, 04:38 PM   #150
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Glad they kept Forbert - Gustafsson. I want to see it as a pairing
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Old 02-25-2020, 04:39 PM   #151
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While true and factual I think the comparison is better served with expected metrics. If a trio is stoned repeatedly or has had subpar goaltending when on the ice you may miss a better combination.

In this case though it still holds.

Ryan version - 269 minutes xGF% 50.81%
Bennett version - 37 minutes xGF% 50.68%

Pretty tight, but the Ryan version with the edge.

The big difference then, as expected is puck luck with the Ryan version posting 1.05 PDO compared to the Bennett version 0.925. That's a huge discrepancy.

Bennett version has had terrible goaltending at .783 save percentage when together.

All this says is that they have two options, and Bennett has done quite well at center. If they think Ryan would be better anchoring his own line at center on the fourth it's a pretty good option.
xGF% is a great stat and does a great job of attempting to extrapolate an expected goal rate. That we agree on. However, for me the delineation of the quality of shot is still a little basic and doesn’t fully represent the true quality of a shot.

I think xGF% is good to use when lines have a small sample size but when there is a large, say 269min over various goaltenders in all kinds of different situations and games, you might as well use actual counting stats as I believe they tend to balance out the inadequacies of advanced stats.

What you’d need to validate the numbers for Lucic-Bennett-Dube is 200 or so more minutes of playing time together. If it was the beginning of the year, I’d be all over that. Given there are 19 games left in the year, it makes perfect logical sense to go with Lucic-Ryan-Dube for the stretch run and keep Bennett as an option for the 3rd line based on performance.
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Old 02-25-2020, 04:41 PM   #152
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You forgot about Valimaki.


D’oh!!

Hell, now what?

I guess there’s a better than good chance Brodie will be gone ...


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Old 02-25-2020, 04:41 PM   #153
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Stone in.

Calgary Flames @NHLFlames
#Flames lines during warmup:

Gaudreau - Monahan - Lindholm
Tkachuk - Backlund - Mangiapane
Lucic - Ryan - Dube
Bennett - Jankowski - Rieder

Hanifin - Andersson
Brodie - Stone

Forbort - Gustafsson


Okay, I'm gonna watch Raptors-Bucks tonight.
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Old 02-25-2020, 04:46 PM   #154
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I think the argument a lot of us are making is, this is a player who has struggled mightily with consistency and confidence, a lot of which has to do with how he has been deployed by the team. And that it isn't very logical to take away his role as soon as he starts having lasting success.

Add that to the fact I believe Ryan would be able to get more out of his linemates while centering the 4th line than Bennett will as Jankowski's winger.

So I see your point but in my opinion the logical thing to do would be keeping the successful Lucic-Bennett-Dube line together while improving the 4th line more with Derek Ryan
It's a fair point and if we weren't in a tight playoff race with 19 games left, it would be easier for me to get behind rolling with Bennett at center on that line to truly see what you have there.

However with so few games left, I think you ice what is the best line-up you can, which for me is Lucic-Ryan-Dube. The great part is you know you have Bennett as an option in your back pocket.
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Old 02-25-2020, 04:46 PM   #155
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I’m disappointed Stone is seen as a better option than Kyllington.


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Old 02-25-2020, 04:47 PM   #156
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No Gio tonight sucks, but he is close so Nashville on Thurs is a possibility.
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Old 02-25-2020, 04:48 PM   #157
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Gio out, Stone in.......quite the downgrade.
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Old 02-25-2020, 04:48 PM   #158
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Okay, I'm gonna watch Raptors-Bucks tonight.
Yeah, this does not look promising. Maybe Boston will throttle it back a few notches tonight.
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Old 02-25-2020, 04:49 PM   #159
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glad they are being cautious
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Old 02-25-2020, 05:05 PM   #160
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Loubo made the point about Ryan that the Bruins have the last change, and Ryan is a better matchup against the top two Bruin lines.
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