The Athletic: LeBrun: Flames in a tough spot

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

I read this as someone who wants to blames a guy that left the organization over nine years ago for the state of the current team. Maybe that's unfair to you, but I believe that's the subtext of what you're saying.

Treliving didn't inherit a solid big league roster and I didn't say that he did. But I think you ignored everything I listed that was good about the situation he stepped into. I stand by my belief that no Flames GM has inherited a better situation than what he did.

I want to evaluate the guy based on what he has, and just as importantly, hasn't done in the last 6 years. If you're saying he had to dig himself out of too big a hole, that's fine. We just see it quite differently.

And I see him doing nothing differently to get any value out of aging players or expiring UFA's, other than when he first took over and they were other people's players.

Is the big league roster better than six years ago? Unequivocal yes from me. Given what he started with and the assets he had to leverage, that is not enough IMO.

No I'm merely disputing your theory that he was stepping into a good situation. He wasn't. The #1 thing a GM needs is assets. This organization has been asset poor since the 80s.
So you when you say "given what he started with and the assets he had to leverage". What assets? He had an aging crappy roster and a horrible prospect base. What assets?
When you turnover your core roster and get nothing in return for them - you pay that price for years.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Specifically this stuff:

"He had a young team, young star talent, excess draft picks."

This simply isn't true. The team was aging, with only a few pre-apex players. They had only one legit prospect. They had one extra 2nd round pick in the coming draft.

So your description of what he was inheriting - doesn't seem accurate, at least from my view.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Sutter was a good GM for one move only - getting Kipper. Kipper was the #1 reason why the Flames made their run, and won the division a season later. He played as well as a goalie can for those 2 years.
Sutter was an elite coach and not a good GM.
He was a terrible drafter, and made similar moves that people criticize Tree for - trading away picks for roster players. (2nd for Bourque, 3rd for Staios, etc)
He did poorly on a lot of his deals. Some get a lot of attention but others are forgotten more. But among his bad deals you have the Phaneuf trade, Jokinen to NYR, Primeau+2nd for Colin Stuart and Anton Stralman (who he then traded for a pick). Some people hate the Okotoker for Stuart deal too, but at least I get why that one was made. He had some good ones too (getting Cammy, trading for Conroy twice) but overall he was more bad than good with trades.

Darryl Sutter was not a good GM.

It's not just Kipper. What Darryl did the rest of 2004 is why the Flames went on the run they did. Nilsson, Nieminen and Simon were incredible adds.

No I wouldn't hire Sutter to be my GM. Ever.

But it's about winning folks. He was responsible for more success than any other Flames GM save some guy some named Cliff.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

It's not just Kipper. What Darryl did the rest of 2004 is why the Flames went on the run they did. Nilsson, Nieminen and Simon were incredible adds.

No I wouldn't hire Sutter to be my GM. Ever.

But it's about winning folks. He was responsible for more success than any other Flames GM save some guy some named Cliff.

He was a great GM for that year for sure and probably the next season.
After that - not sure what happened.

[GioforPM]

One thing that hasn’t been mentioned much is - not only did Treliving draft Dube, Andersson and Kylington, he manufactured the picks that got them via trades. And Wolf, Phillips, and Parsons, too.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Specifically this stuff:

"He had a young team, young star talent, excess draft picks."

This simply isn't true. The team was aging, with only a few pre-apex players. They had only one legit prospect. They had one extra 2nd round pick in the coming draft.

So your description of what he was inheriting - doesn't seem accurate, at least from my view.

Well you cherry picked a few.

You forgot cap room, and low expectations allowing him to trade guys for picks.

And the core of the team was young. He didn't have to do anything creative to get rid of players locked into bad long term contracts. The bad contracts were of his doing, beginning almost immediately with Mason Raymond.

It's easy to look at the prospects from 6 years ago and point out all those who didn't make it. It will be interesting to do that with the current prospects six years from now.

I feel like if things were as bad as you believe, it's even more of an indictment of his approach to trade away picks.

Nothing wrong with disagreeing. At some point though, the situation he inherited is irrelevant. Certainly doesn't have much to do with his inactivity over last two seasons.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Cap room and low expectations are things expansion teams also have
What GMs need are assets
But I don’t understand the position that the core of the team was young when he took over. How so?
Anyways agree to disagree

[browna]

And, before we go off too far on Sutter, Flames had a Game 7 vs Ana the next year after a terrible sequence which could’ve had the series over before 7 with a Huselius breakaway post turning in Game 5 turning into a Ducks PP to tie the game and the win in OT. Then Moss missing an empty net in OT Game 6 from taking the Wings to 7 in 2007. Next year, there again, losing 7 games the next playoffs vs Sharks. So he had the teams right there, they couldn’t get over that first round hump after decent regular seasons.

Sutter brought respectability back to the Flames, signings like Amonte, McCarty the first year were unheard of. Guys like Hamrlik chose the Flames. Bouwmeester. Cammaleri, Langkow, Jokinen on that trade deadline day in 2009 and made an immediate impact.

His trades were often out of necessity or lack of patience,and then he only dealt with the same guys he trusted around the league, to his downfall. The Phanuef trade was a lack of scoring,and a lot of injuries up front, so he needed a bunch of forwards, and dealt only with Burke. Remember Phil Sauve, gone within a week for being selfish wandering down for a goalie fight?

His teams didn’t get it done in the playoffs, pure and simple...like 2004 though, where it took a clutch game 7 Vancouver or that run would’ve never happened, and then winning every Game 5 with each 4 series, all tied 2-2, on the road, was remarkable in many senses, never mind odds wise.

Like the Flames in 1989, 2004 and maybe last year, those 2006-09 playoff teams maybe just needed to also just get past the mental barrier of the first round, and win who knows, because you never got the sense they were built for only one round...but Sutter had the roster built right there for a first round success, and all 3 of those series the Flames could’ve just as easily come out the winners in the end, though Kipper did play lights out vs Detroit and carry the team.

If Sutter gets to round 2 or 3 in a couple of those years, I think he gets much longer rope (he already had a fair bit) from Edwards and the owners and his moves don’t look quite as puzzling as they did with no playoff success to support his cause.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

No I'm merely disputing your theory that he was stepping into a good situation. He wasn't. The #1 thing a GM needs is assets. This organization has been asset poor since the 80s.
So you when you say "given what he started with and the assets he had to leverage". What assets? He had an aging crappy roster and a horrible prospect base. What assets?
When you turnover your core roster and get nothing in return for them - you pay that price for years.

He was able to trade Glencross, Hudler and Russell for picks. Plus the extra second that Burke got him. As well as deal a guy like Sven.

That's not starting from a deficit. That's a clean slate with a few extras. With Monahan, Gaudreau, Backlund, Giordano, Brodie to build out from along with a few high draft picks and cap space to burn.

Looking forward from six years ago, I'd have been disappointed with a playoff bubble team, capped out, burdened with buyouts.

I'm not saying Tre is all bad, because he isn't. And I don't have nearly enough info to suggest canning the guy. But I just can't get on board with the idea he had a big hole to dig out of and we should be satisfied where we are.

[GioforPM]

It’s true Treliving traded picks when he thought the team was about to make a big step forward (maybe not contend for a cup but the players he got looked to be guys who would contribute for a while).

In his “good” GM year, Sutter had a team that was just making it into the POs for the first time in years. He traded two 2nds, a 5th and 6th to get goaltending and depth. And it worked too.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Cap room and low expectations are things expansion teams also have
What GMs need are assets
But I don’t understand the position that the core of the team was young when he took over. How so?
Anyways agree to disagree

Expansion teams don't have Gaudreau, Monahan, Giordano for starters. Come on, that's silly.

The core of the team was not old. The old guys were expiring UFA's that could be turned into draft picks, the exact opposite of core players.

Are you thinking guys like Hudler, Glencross and Wideman were the core of the team? They were nothing but surplus draft picks for whatever GM took over from Feaster,

[FireGilbert]

Treliving did a brilliant job in the first half of his tenure re-stocking the cupboards and giving the team respectability. For example the Glencross and Baertschi trades for futures while the team was in a playoff spot were skilled asset management moves unheard of in Flames history.

It is the more recent years of failing to get the team over the hump with the prospect pool and draft picks being depleted that is open to criticism.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Expansion teams don't have Gaudreau, Monahan, Giordano for starters. Come on, that's silly.

The core of the team was not old. The old guys were expiring UFA's that could be turned into draft picks, the exact opposite of core players.

Are you thinking guys like Hudler, Glencross and Wideman were the core of the team? They were nothing but surplus draft picks for whatever GM took over from Feaster,

Well who was the core then?

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

He was able to trade Glencross, Hudler and Russell for picks. Plus the extra second that Burke got him. As well as deal a guy like Sven.

That's not starting from a deficit. That's a clean slate with a few extras. With Monahan, Gaudreau, Backlund, Giordano, Brodie to build out from along with a few high draft picks and cap space to burn.

Looking forward from six years ago, I'd have been disappointed with a playoff bubble team, capped out, burdened with buyouts.

I'm not saying Tre is all bad, because he isn't. And I don't have nearly enough info to suggest canning the guy. But I just can't get on board with the idea he had a big hole to dig out of and we should be satisfied where we are.

Burke wasted the second on Hunter Smith
The other guys were traded for seconds and thirds which are helpful but ultimately you need quality players and prospects. The Flames had very few of both as my summary illustrated quite clearly

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Expansion teams don't have Gaudreau, Monahan, Giordano for starters. Come on, that's silly.

The core of the team was not old. The old guys were expiring UFA's that could be turned into draft picks, the exact opposite of core players.

Are you thinking guys like Hudler, Glencross and Wideman were the core of the team? They were nothing but surplus draft picks for whatever GM took over from Feaster,

Hudler was the team’s leading scorer the previous year. His 3-4 D were Russell and Wideman (until he made the big splash for Hamilton). And Wideman wasn’t “surplus picks” - he was on a contract that had a couple more years.

The only key players on the roster under 25 were Gaudreau, Monahan, Ferland and Bennett. It was a pretty old team.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Let's take a look at the state of the franchise when he took over in the spring of 2014.
The roster consisted of
- leading scorer Jiri Hudler (54 points - one of the lowest top scorers in the league)
- the second leading scorer was Giordano with 47 points
- The top goal scorer was Mike Cammalleri (26 goals) who was now a free agent
- Other key forwards were Mikael Backlund, Sean Monahan, Matt Stajan, Joe Colborne and Curtis Glencross. You also had the likes of Stempniak, Byron, Jones, and Galiardi. Of the entire forward group on Backlund and Monahan were "pre-apex" though Hudler would go on to have an unreal year
- The D consisted of Gio, Brodie, Russell, Wideman, and Chris Butler
- There was no #1 goalie (Ramo, Ortio, MacDonald, Berra)

So let's agree the big league roster wasn't good.

This is the top 10 prospects in the organization as of spring 2014, according to The Hockey Writers.
1. Johnny
2. Emile Poirier
3. Sven
4. Markus Granlund
5. Bill Arnold
6. Morgan Klimchuk
7. Corban Knight
8. Kenny Agostino
9. John Gillies
10. Joni Ortio

Of the group only one turned into a store, and two more turned into below average NHLers (Sven and Granlund). The rest - nothing there.

So you had a crappy NHL team and a crappy prospect base, except Johnny.
Tree also had a top 5 pick in that draft - used for Sam which everyone thought was the right move. He had two 2nds wasted on Mason Macdonald and Hunter Smith. According to most - Tree had very little, if any say in that draft.

So that's what he had to work with. Pretty poor. Largely because the previous regime got NOTHING out of the core of Iginla, Regehr, Bouwmeester, Langkow, and Kipper.

If the organization was in this rough shape, why the hell is he trading picks in his second year running the team?

I mean, obviously we are dealing with a ownership hurdle here, but...

It's too bad the flames didn't get anything for their previous major assets, but isn't that an indication a good GM would prioritize addressing the asset deficit instead of trying to buy your way to respectability?

We talked about this then.

Joe Colborne scored 44 points in 73 games and then walked away from the organization after not even being qualified, let alone traded in a year they didn't make the playoffs...

It's one thing to have no assets from a previous core group, it's another to then almost immediately begin deficit spending to get within spitting distance of 8th in the west.

We all love Backlund and Giordano, but those players should've been sold at their pre-apex career highs, not signed to retirement contracts after career years. I LOVE Gio, but rebuilding teams that have never won anything shouldn't be holding onto players like that.

Totally agree with what Strange Brew is saying.

[Strange Brew]

I mentioned earlier guys like Gaudreau, Monahan, Gio, Brodie, Backlund. That’s who I consider the core, players you would be building around. Probably even Sven at the time.

Anyway you may disagree, or argue that’s not enough of a core. All fair opinions but I still don’t see that Treliving was burdened with veteran players.

[TheScorpion]

Question, Flash — do you think the Flames should be trading Giordano this summer?

More and more I’m starting to wonder if he’s the guy on his way out.

[blender]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

He was a great GM for that year for sure and probably the next season.
After that - not sure what happened.

I think you need to count the good teams of 2005-2009 in the Sutter review. Even though the results were underwhelming in the playoffs, those were good teams.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

Question, Flash — do you think the Flames should be trading Giordano this summer?

More and more I’m starting to wonder if he’s the guy on his way out.

No one wants to hear the changes I would make to this roster.