The Athletic: LeBrun: Flames in a tough spot

[Badgers Nose]

Man, so many teams are in it this year. Flames are so inconsistent it makes BT's job crazy. It's a Murphy's Law team if ever there was one:

If he ads, they will flake out and miss the playoffs.

If he sells, they will make a run and get depleted begging the question 'what if?'

I'm ready for the next wave, I say start the reload/rebuild. Seems like a seller's market.

[GranteedEV]

The fact that the Hanifin - Hamonic pairing had an abysmal playoffs and then was kept glued together for an abysmal season until a fortunate injury split them up speaks to organizational issues from top to bottom. I still wouldn't be surprised if we see the return of Hamifin the minute Travis and Gio are healthy. It'd be par for the course.

Meanwhile, Brodie, our best Dman in the playoffs was being shipped off for a forward and he's been our best Dman this season and the center of trade talks.

[Badgers Nose]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

What are you telling your fans who spend thousands of dollars on tickets, food and merch every year? Thanks for your money, we are close to a playoff spot but decided we think this team is no longer good enough so we are giving up on the year. Please keep your tickets next season as we will be better?

I think it would be great to say "we are not in it to be average, so we are taking steps to reach the next level; one step back for two forward."

It would be just a reload at this stage. I doubt fans would be too upset.

Why? "from last year's all star break to now we have enough data to know last year's reg season result was an anomaly."

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Badgers Nose

I think it would be great to say "we are not in it to be average, so we are taking steps to reach the next level; one step back for two forward."

It would be just a reload at this stage. I doubt fans would be too upset.

Why? "from last year's all star break to now we have enough data to know last year's reg season result was an anomaly."

I think the committed fans would understand, judging by this site. But the casual fans would not understand it.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by bubbsy

I mean if one were to squint hard enough, perhaps lucic and a backup is what was needed in the tight checking latter half of the season and the series vs the avs......

Also, having deals leaked that includes who you were parting with sure must send a great msg to the players involved (not surprising to see the starts Brodie and a young guy like jankowski go thru). Furthermore, having deals continuously fall thru can also impact player perception of the franchise.

I don't think treliving has done a great job of having a gauge of this group and how to improve the team's direction nor the team's perception of its self.

The Kadri trade leaking is far from a surprise and the same with Zucker as those were done deals. Agents, executives etc talk and that is bound to leak

What other pieces should the Flames have legitimately moved in the summer? I am sure they shopped Frolik, Brodie, and Jankowski all over the league. We heard there was a deal with Jersey that was close.

I think Treliving has done a good job for the most part when swinging blockbuster deals. Adding Lindholm and Hanifin looked to be a transformational trade and Lindholm is arguably our best all around forward.

His heist to get Hamilton in the first place was a phenomenal move for a team that had just unexpectedly won a round of the playoffs in year 2 of a rebuild.

At the end of the day I have the confidence that Treliving will make a good deal if he is trading core pieces this summer

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I think the committed fans would understand, judging by this site. But the casual fans would not understand it.

Let's be real, Jiri.

No one who is a season ticket holder to the Flames is a season ticket holder because they expect playoffs or playoff success.

If you've bought seasons tickets at any point in the last 15 years, you're doing so knowing it's likelier than not this won't be a playoff team.

[Jiri Hrdina]

I didn't say anything about season ticket holders at all.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Badgers Nose

I think it would be great to say "we are not in it to be average, so we are taking steps to reach the next level; one step back for two forward."

It would be just a reload at this stage. I doubt fans would be too upset.

Why? "from last year's all star break to now we have enough data to know last year's reg season result was an anomaly."

So the team had a top 10 record over the last 4 months. They are 2pts out of home ice through the first 2 rounds and they are going to sell off and tank for a couple of second round picks and prospects that maybe get a cup of coffee in the league?

I am not sure how many of the STH base would think that is acceptable? There definitely are some that would be okay with that. If this season was out of reach completely it would be another story but considering they are this close I would be furious and feel my money was wasted. That coupled with how impossible it is the resell tickets I think they would be risking a fair number of cancellations.


If the season ends poorly they can still say the things you are stating and make huge organizational changes over the summer

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Let's be real, Jiri.

No one who is a season ticket holder to the Flames is a season ticket holder because they expect playoffs or playoff success.

If you've bought seasons tickets at any point in the last 15 years, you're doing so knowing it's likelier than not this won't be a playoff team.

I have only had season tickets for 4 years but purchased them thinking this was going to be a contending team eventually and a consistent playoff team soon. Priority seating and not getting gouged on prices for playoff seats is one of the main reasons I have tickets.

[bubbsy]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

The Kadri trade leaking is far from a surprise and the same with Zucker as those were done deals. Agents, executives etc talk and that is bound to leak

What other pieces should the Flames have legitimately moved in the summer? I am sure they shopped Frolik, Brodie, and Jankowski all over the league. We heard there was a deal with Jersey that was close.

I think Treliving has done a good job for the most part when swinging blockbuster deals. Adding Lindholm and Hanifin looked to be a transformational trade and Lindholm is arguably our best all around forward.

His heist to get Hamilton in the first place was a phenomenal move for a team that had just unexpectedly won a round of the playoffs in year 2 of a rebuild.

At the end of the day I have the confidence that Treliving will make a good deal if he is trading core pieces this summer

I dunno, treliving has made a lot of Ill timed moves in my opinion.

How much better would this franchise be had they been more patient and rode out the rebuild.... Like what if they didn't use those high picks on getting Hamilton or hamonic? Didn't double down on the impatience to sign vets like brouwet/neal? I mean it is a dumb question, who knows how that plays out.

For gm that has preached the word "process" the entire time he's been here, fail to see ANY strategy or process in his approach. When it's time to be patient he made moves to accelerate the rebuild, when the team was playing at its peak he got patient.

Now that he's stuck back in the worst place of all, back in the mediocre built team, he's stuck with the do nothing and twittle your thumbs till the offseason. It's absolutely the right move here, I place the blame of being in the predicament at the shoulders of the gm. He's great to listen to, at least he used to be, nice guy, but write down every move made, write down the year over year trajectory of the franchise during his tenure, and it's shockingly chaotic, with no trend to growth, progression, building a winning program whatsoever.

[Jiri Hrdina]

I will probably be accused of being a Tre apologist, but a lot of this organizations challenges continue to go back to lack of assets. So Tre had to use assets to get a #1 goalie, a few times. He can be faulted for perhaps not getting the right guy - but this is a franchise that constantly has robbed Peter (the future) to pay Paul (the present).
I think the Hamilton deal ultimately was positive as it led to the Lindholm/Hanifin acquisitions.
I think the Hamonic deal, in retrospect, wasn't great. And I think the obvious miss-steps with signings are also hurting.
Ultimately there is a pattern where Canadian franchises seem to want to kick their contention window open early - we are seeing it now in real time with the Canucks. Does that pressure come from ownership, the fans, or is it self-inflicted by the GMs.

My evaluation of GMBT overall though is
- A good trader
- Has facilitated improved drafting, in spite of pick deficits
- Good at handling RFA negotiations
- Not good at UFA signings
- Questionable coaching hires

Overall I think he does more good than bad.
People can disagree.

[Strange Brew]

I understand differing views on Treliving but I can’t agree with suggesting the team’s current state is based on a lack of assets when he started six years ago. He had a young team, young star talent, excess draft picks, swimming in cap space and zero initial expectations allowing him to trade players for picks.

IMO he was set up better than any Flame GM in history.

[CliffFletcher]

It certainly looks like Canadian franchises have less patience than American ones. But I can't figure out why that would be. Why would owners of franchises that routinely sell out be more impatient than owners of teams that often have 4-5 thousand empty seats in the arena?

[Jiggy_12]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I will probably be accused of being a Tre apologist, but a lot of this organizations challenges continue to go back to lack of assets. So Tre had to use assets to get a #1 goalie, a few times. He can be faulted for perhaps not getting the right guy - but this is a franchise that constantly has robbed Peter (the future) to pay Paul (the present).
I think the Hamilton deal ultimately was positive as it led to the Lindholm/Hanifin acquisitions.
I think the Hamonic deal, in retrospect, wasn't great. And I think the obvious miss-steps with signings are also hurting.
Ultimately there is a pattern where Canadian franchises seem to want to kick their contention window open early - we are seeing it now in real time with the Canucks. Does that pressure come from ownership, the fans, or is it self-inflicted by the GMs.

My evaluation of GMBT overall though is
- A good trader
- Has facilitated improved drafting, in spite of pick deficits
- Good at handling RFA negotiations
- Not good a UFA signings
- Questionable coaching hires

Overall I think he does more good than bad.
People can disagree.

I think Tre is a good man, he’s a great face for the franchise and is probably very well respected within the Calgary Flames organization. His RFA work has been incredible, so I think he’s also a good negotiator and someone that players want to work for.

I don’t know if he’s good at constructing a winning hockey team, capable of keeping up with stronger, faster teams.

I think he’s in the middle 1/3 of GM’s, I like him running the team but I’m not confident we ever see a championship under his watch.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I will probably be accused of being a Tre apologist, but a lot of this organizations challenges continue to go back to lack of assets. So Tre had to use assets to get a #1 goalie, a few times. He can be faulted for perhaps not getting the right guy - but this is a franchise that constantly has robbed Peter (the future) to pay Paul (the present).
I think the Hamilton deal ultimately was positive as it led to the Lindholm/Hanifin acquisitions.
I think the Hamonic deal, in retrospect, wasn't great. And I think the obvious miss-steps with signings are also hurting.
Ultimately there is a pattern where Canadian franchises seem to want to kick their contention window open early - we are seeing it now in real time with the Canucks. Does that pressure come from ownership, the fans, or is it self-inflicted by the GMs.

My evaluation of GMBT overall though is
- A good trader
- Has facilitated improved drafting, in spite of pick deficits
- Good at handling RFA negotiations
- Not good a UFA signings
- Questionable coaching hires

Overall I think he does more good than bad.
People can disagree.

I think this is a great post and echos a lot of my thoughts. He has been great at the things that are critical in my opinion and that is leveraging a negotiation to his advantage when he can (RFA) and has done for the most part a good job of negotiating with his peers (trades).

I would wager Treliving would be fantastic at UFA signings if he were GM of the Rangers. The problem with trying to plug crucial pieces with free agents simply doesn’t work here unless you get the rare Jay Bouwmeester situation (hoping that is Hall this summer).

[Red_Baron]

I hope they can sell off at least one asset to help build up the future.

Without a strong coach, we won't last if we do make the playoffs so might as well start to retool a few pieces and hope for the best. It is pretty clear that Ward will get the rest of the year so I am now just willing to accept whatever happens and hope the 10th to 18th overall pick that we get in this year's draft is able to exceed expectations 2 years from now.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

The fact that the Hanifin - Hamonic pairing had an abysmal playoffs and then was kept glued together for an abysmal season until a fortunate injury split them up speaks to organizational issues from top to bottom. I still wouldn't be surprised if we see the return of Hamifin the minute Travis and Gio are healthy. It'd be par for the course.

Meanwhile, Brodie, our best Dman in the playoffs was being shipped off for a forward and he's been our best Dman this season and the center of trade talks.

It’s not like Brodie was being traded for nothing. That would have been a great trade for Calgary.

[Badgers Nose]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Let's be real, Jiri.

No one who is a season ticket holder to the Flames is a season ticket holder because they expect playoffs or playoff success.

If you've bought seasons tickets at any point in the last 15 years, you're doing so knowing it's likelier than not this won't be a playoff team.

Yeah, this is true. That's why Flames fans are the best.

[Badgers Nose]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

So the team had a top 10 record over the last 4 months. They are 2pts out of home ice through the first 2 rounds and they are going to sell off and tank for a couple of second round picks and prospects that maybe get a cup of coffee in the league?

I am not sure how many of the STH base would think that is acceptable? There definitely are some that would be okay with that. If this season was out of reach completely it would be another story but considering they are this close I would be furious and feel my money was wasted. That coupled with how impossible it is the resell tickets I think they would be risking a fair number of cancellations.


If the season ends poorly they can still say the things you are stating and make huge organizational changes over the summer

IDK, maybe it's time ot try something different. You are right, but it seems this deadline might be filled with over payers.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Badgers Nose

IDK, maybe it's time ot try something different. You are right, but it seems this deadline might be filled with over payers.

I see the team getting the same return for Hamonic the Sharks got for Dillon and maybe the same return for Brodie as the Kings did for Martinez. Yes having 3 more 2nds and another 3rd would be nice but not at the cost of giving up on the season.

I am as pissed as anyone this organization might lose both Brodie and Hamonic for nothing and I am not overly interested in giving either a sizable raise to keep them long term. I still hope one is traded for a player that will help right now as opposed to futures.

2 years ago it was clear once that team was done that Hamilton was being traded and Gulutzan fired. This season it is pretty clear that Johnny and Ward will bite the dust unless things change.

One thing I remember about last year was really wanting the Avs in round one. They were red hot down the stretch and carried that momentum through. If the Flames have a strong finish they can carry that momentum into the playoffs as well