The Athletic: LeBrun: Flames in a tough spot

[Stanley]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

Selling is a bad idea because it sends a terrible message to the players. We are right in the thick of it and you are going to sell off key players for picks? You just told your core players you don't believe in them. If I was a young core player on this team and my GM did that I would want out. If I am a player from another team or a UFA and Calgary comes calling I would not want any part of it after they just showed they don't want to compete. Want to retool the roster? You do it in the offseason. Selling a guy like Brodie who is absolutely essential right now to the team for a draft pick or a prospect is a big F you to this roster, it would have a huge negative effect now and down the road. If BT doesn't want to trade futures for rentals at the deadline that is fine, it makes sense given the prices and our need for youth in the system but you can't hold a fire sale either when you are right in the thick of it or you might as well trade every core piece after the season, Tkachuk included because they are not going to want to be here.

That's a valid point

[FlamesFanInEdmonton]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

Selling is a bad idea because it sends a terrible message to the players. We are right in the thick of it and you are going to sell off key players for picks? You just told your core players you don't believe in them. If I was a young core player on this team and my GM did that I would want out. If I am a player from another team or a UFA and Calgary comes calling I would not want any part of it after they just showed they don't want to compete. Want to retool the roster? You do it in the offseason. Selling a guy like Brodie who is absolutely essential right now to the team for a draft pick or a prospect is a big F you to this roster, it would have a huge negative effect now and down the road. If BT doesn't want to trade futures for rentals at the deadline that is fine, it makes sense given the prices and our need for youth in the system but you can't hold a fire sale either when you are right in the thick of it or you might as well trade every core piece after the season, Tkachuk included because they are not going to want to be here.

It’s telling your core players they weren’t good enough. You have them a chance and they squandered it. Is it wrong to be honest with yourself and the team?? I’m quite sure the team already knows it. They haven’t been good enough. Period. This team needs some core changes. That should be obvious to everyone. This isn’t high school. These are highly paid professional athletes and they are and should be well aware that mediocrity won’t be accepted. Losing Brodie and Hamonic for nothing when you could acquire assets for them is foolish. Signing them is also foolish.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

Selling is a bad idea because it sends a terrible message to the players. We are right in the thick of it and you are going to sell off key players for picks? You just told your core players you don't believe in them. If I was a young core player on this team and my GM did that I would want out. If I am a player from another team or a UFA and Calgary comes calling I would not want any part of it after they just showed they don't want to compete. Want to retool the roster? You do it in the offseason. Selling a guy like Brodie who is absolutely essential right now to the team for a draft pick or a prospect is a big F you to this roster, it would have a huge negative effect now and down the road. If BT doesn't want to trade futures for rentals at the deadline that is fine, it makes sense given the prices and our need for youth in the system but you can't hold a fire sale either when you are right in the thick of it or you might as well trade every core piece after the season, Tkachuk included because they are not going to want to be here.

In 14-15 the Flames has 69 points in 62 games (basically the exact same number of points per game as this year) and were 4 points behind 2nd place and they traded their 4th highest scoring forward for two draft picks. The young players I think still wanted to be here after that trade.

[PeteMoss]

I'm fine with just staying still.

Sure you could sell Brodie, but you'd have to be confident that at least 2 of Valimaki, Hamonic and Giordano are coming back soon.

Besides that - maybe a 2nd or 3rd for a guy like Kase or Grimaldi

I know everyone likes to think the Flames have no shot at winning anything in the playoffs, but all the scary teams are in the East. You get in, you can win a round or two in the west.

[getoverit]

You really don’t. Bring up some babies and give em a taste. If we sell I’m thinking tanking isn’t a bad thing. Just sayin. Core will change next year so it will all be a fresh start. Just sayin

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

I'm fine with just staying still.

Sure you could sell Brodie, but you'd have to be confident that at least 2 of Valimaki, Hamonic and Giordano are coming back soon.

Besides that - maybe a 2nd or 3rd for a guy like Kase or Grimaldi

I know everyone likes to think the Flames have no shot at winning anything in the playoffs, but all the scary teams are in the East. You get in, you can win a round or two in the west.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by getoverit

You really don’t. Bring up some babies and give em a taste. If we sell I’m thinking tanking isn’t a bad thing. Just sayin. Core will change next year so it will all be a fresh start. Just sayin

There's maybe one (if you squint maybe two) guy in Stockton who's has a fighting chance of not being a bottom of the roster guy. I mean sure you can call guys up but outside of Gadwin and Phillips most of them won't be on the roster next year either.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

I understand the sentiment of waiting for major move(s) in June, but I don't think it's the best strategy.

Realistically, this team needs 2 big trades.

There were only 3-6 substantial hockey trades involving core players last summer (Trouba, Faulk, Kadri, Kessel*, Subban*, JT Miller*); the rest were cap dumps, nibbling around the edges, or prospect for prospect. *Kessel/Subban/Miller were really cap dumps...no team was able to make two big trades.

No reason to expect this summer will be much different.

Not to de-rail to Johnny talk, but I simply don't agree with the sentiment that he will be easier to trade this summer, for a number of reasons. One not often discussed being expansion...who wants to pay a big price for a guy who will use a protection slot with only 1 yr left to UFA afterwards? I really think his value is at it's peak this week - the extra opportunity with him in the playoffs is massive.

Tough sell to fans and STH, so it's almost certainly not going to happen. For me, it's as simple as imagining his loss is due to injury as much as trade. I go back to something Montour+Cozens (as a base; probably more components on each side, like Janko/Mittlestadt and swapping 2nds or something). It essentially turns our subtraction (aka. injury loss) into 1D and 1F instead of 2D (though I'd still sell Brodie and just hope for the best on Gio's return).

That would set everything up to deal Hanifin (or Vali/Kyli) in June, which is absolutely the right time to trade a player like him.

Why is it that we see the majority of blockbuster trades in the summer? It is very simple to be honest. Teams have a ton more time and flexibility with their roster. They have months to move contracts, sign players and make trades. Even with that time we are finding it challenging for some teams to be compliant.

The fact you think trading Johnny is just as easy now as it will be in 3-4 months you are simply flat out wrong. There would certainly would be teams that would want to be in it this summer that won’t be in it now. There are players the Flames will target in the summer that might not be available until then.


Remember the last time the Flames pulled off an in season blockbuster with a bottom feeder. We got a bunch of crap for our best trade chip.

It is an impossible sell to the season ticket holders at this point. The team has been in a playoff spot for for the last 6 weeks and are just as close to being first in the division as they are to being out. I am just not sure how an organization who is built with players in their prime can punt the season and force a trade for their star player. Logically they see how far they go this year and that dictates the direction they go in the summer

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by Toonage

Treliving on the Fan (paraphrasing):


Looking for under the radar players. Good solid 2 way players, depth players

Please, no.

This concept that other teams are sitting on good players that they just can't seem to spot within their own organization is just a way to bleed draft picks.

Plus all these names tossed around just seem like they're being discussed because they're available, not because they're necessarily someone we'd want. Simmonds?! Come on. Kase? I don't remember anyone on this board talking about him until now... the point isn't to spend assets on someone simply because they're available.

Sit still Brad. Should have moved quickly and decisively in the summer on Brodie or Hamonic, but perhaps indecision and the Valimaki injury left us where we are. We could have tried a brodie/hamonic swap for a quality forward at trade deadline but injuries killed that possibility as well.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

In 14-15 the Flames has 69 points in 62 games (basically the exact same number of points per game as this year) and were 4 points behind 2nd place and they traded their 4th highest scoring forward for two draft picks. The young players I think still wanted to be here after that trade.

That season was 1000% found money and they were not expected to contend so if they fell off after the Glencross trade that was a non-issue as Gio was out for the year and they were supposed to be a bottom team.

This year they expected to be a top team and are falling short of expectations but could still be in the mix

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by FlamesFanInEdmonton

It’s telling your core players they weren’t good enough. You have them a chance and they squandered it. Is it wrong to be honest with yourself and the team?? I’m quite sure the team already knows it. They haven’t been good enough. Period. This team needs some core changes. That should be obvious to everyone. This isn’t high school. These are highly paid professional athletes and they are and should be well aware that mediocrity won’t be accepted. Losing Brodie and Hamonic for nothing when you could acquire assets for them is foolish. Signing them is also foolish.

What are you telling your fans who spend thousands of dollars on tickets, food and merch every year? Thanks for your money, we are close to a playoff spot but decided we think this team is no longer good enough so we are giving up on the year. Please keep your tickets next season as we will be better?

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

What are you telling your fans who spend thousands of dollars on tickets, food and merch every year? Thanks for your money, we are close to a playoff spot but decided we think this team is no longer good enough so we are giving up on the year. Please keep your tickets next season as we will be better?

As a STH I'm more pissed off at this team's general lack of direction.

The team got embarrassed in the playoffs. During the summer, Tree bridged Tkachuk to keep the cap at a reasonable level to help them compete now...and he accomplished nothing else. The team has been nothing more than a .500 team all season with huge effort/execution issues, and Tree has done nothing to improve the team or address any of the issues with it - he also hasn't hired a head coach after his last head coach was a league-wide embarrassment.

As a STH, I'm on board with anything that has purpose. This season? This season seems like a giant waste of everybody's time and he's taken no steps to make sure next year is any better. All we've seen is an acceptance of the "all you need to do is get in" approach, and that pisses me off. The drop in quality of the on-ice product at the Saddledome is also a big point of frustration for me. From this shift towards dumping it in, to the horrid number of times we've been shutout this year - it has just been an awful, directionless season.

[The Boy Wonder]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

As a STH I'm more pissed off at this team's general lack of direction.

The team got embarrassed in the playoffs. During the summer, Tree bridged Tkachuk to keep the cap at a reasonable level to help them compete now...and he accomplished nothing else. The team has been nothing more than a .500 team all season for decades with huge effort/execution issues, and Tree has done nothing to improve the team or address any of the issues with it - he also hasn't hired a head coach after his last head coach was a league-wide embarrassment.

As a STH, I'm on board with anything that has purpose. This season? This season seems like a giant waste of everybody's time and he's taken no steps to make sure next year is any better. All we've seen is an acceptance of the "all you need to do is get in" approach, and that pisses me off.

Fixed it for you.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

As a STH I'm more pissed off at this team's general lack of direction.

The team got embarrassed in the playoffs. During the summer, Tree bridged Tkachuk to keep the cap at a reasonable level to help them compete now...and he accomplished nothing else. The team has been nothing more than a .500 team all season with huge effort/execution issues, and Tree has done nothing to improve the team or address any of the issues with it - he also hasn't hired a head coach after his last head coach was a league-wide embarrassment.

As a STH, I'm on board with anything that has purpose. This season? This season seems like a giant waste of everybody's time and he's taken no steps to make sure next year is any better. All we've seen is an acceptance of the "all you need to do is get in" approach, and that pisses me off.

For me if they punt this season I will be furious. I also think the lack of direction is a panicked comment. Personally I was not the least bit surprised very little happened this summer it was as clear as day they had limited flexibility. Tkachuk completely handcuffed the team and most RFA’s handcuffed the entire league.

If this team is playing their best hockey in March and April then perhaps they go through a round or two? It sure doesn’t seem like they have been great but Scorp posted a tweet that shows this is a top 10 team record wise over the past 4 months.

We are 61 games into the season. Try and make the team better by Monday if you can. Do what you can with this group and in the summer there are a bevy of coaches available and core players are being shopped. If they go deep then re-evaluate the core and coach.

Summer is when directional moves occur. For now improve the team if the cost makes sense. Don’t waste futures and focus on a hockey deal for the next several years.

[FlamesFanInEdmonton]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

What are you telling your fans who spend thousands of dollars on tickets, food and merch every year? Thanks for your money, we are close to a playoff spot but decided we think this team is no longer good enough so we are giving up on the year. Please keep your tickets next season as we will be better?

You’re telling your fans the same thing. That you’re sick of mediocrity and being pretenders. You’re telling your fans you are actually trying to put together a winning team and that you’re not just there to collect their money. I’m a fan. I have been for over 3 decades now. I’d appreciate this approach. Nobody is saying we should sell off the entire team. We could get some important picks and pieces however by making a couple of changes to the core. We could lose Brodie and Hamonic for nothing. It’s clear this team doesn’t have what it takes so get some valuable pieces going forward. Trade Johnny out east. I’m not saying he sucks, but he’s not what this team needs right now. The complexion of this team needs to change and moving him and the D mentioned above does that. This team isn’t battling for anything right now. It would be nice if fans were honest with themselves once in a while. I want this team to be successful. I’ve invested many years of my time supporting this team and the same old song and dance is getting old.

[FlamesFanInEdmonton]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Summer is when directional moves occur. For now improve the team if the cost makes sense. Don’t waste futures and focus on a hockey deal for the next several years.

I agree on the wasting futures point. To improve this team right now will require giving up exactly that. It’s pointless. We should be trying to acquire young high end talent, or high picks for this upcoming draft. The team had been wildly inconsistent and it’s clear it isn’t a perennial contender with its existing core.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

It can't be stated enough. How much different with the Flames prospec base look today with the addition of a 1st round talent and four 2nd round talents? Treliving got greedy and now he's paying the price. I will say at least this restraint is showing that he realizes his past mistakes.

It’s overstated actually. Flanes still have a wealth of young NHLers and picks. Our system is bare mostly due to graduating players, not a lack of picks.

The moaning over a few traded picks on here is ridiculous. And I’m a big draft fan! They are currency. They will be moved. During rebuilds you acquire extra. We’re not rebuilding anymore. This obsession with stockpiling picks and lamenting every traded pick ever is ridiculous.

[bubbsy]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

Selling is a bad idea because it sends a terrible message to the players. We are right in the thick of it and you are going to sell off key players for picks? You just told your core players you don't believe in them. If I was a young core player on this team and my GM did that I would want out. If I am a player from another team or a UFA and Calgary comes calling I would not want any part of it after they just showed they don't want to compete. Want to retool the roster? You do it in the offseason. Selling a guy like Brodie who is absolutely essential right now to the team for a draft pick or a prospect is a big F you to this roster, it would have a huge negative effect now and down the road. If BT doesn't want to trade futures for rentals at the deadline that is fine, it makes sense given the prices and our need for youth in the system but you can't hold a fire sale either when you are right in the thick of it or you might as well trade every core piece after the season, Tkachuk included because they are not going to want to be here.

Great post.

Can you imagine being part of a team that won the conference but were so obviously lacking peices and got shredded during the latter part of the year and the playoffs, and the gm just brings back THE WHOLE (same) gang for the next season?

Does that also not send a msg to the franchise's aspirations and willingness to become an actual contender vs being content to ‘just get in’.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by FlamesFanInEdmonton

I agree on the wasting futures point. To improve this team right now will require giving up exactly that. It’s pointless. We should be trying to acquire young high end talent, or high picks for this upcoming draft. The team had been wildly inconsistent and it’s clear it isn’t a perennial contender with its existing core.

I know it is not the most logical choice but it makes the most business sense to see where this team goes this year and not subtract from the current group for futures. All the wildcard teams that won in round one last year were in a similar spot as the Flames.

I don’t think it is pointless to pursue the playoffs when the path to the third round is through the rest of this mediocre division. Trust me I am full on for sweeping changes if they do fizzle out in round one. I will be one of the fans lining up to grill Treliving with questions at the ticket holder sessions.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by bubbsy

Great post.

Can you imagine being part of a team that won the conference but were so obviously lacking peices and got shredded during the latter part of the year and the playoffs, and the gm just brings back THE WHOLE (same) gang for the next season?

Does that also not send a msg to the franchise's aspirations and willingness to become an actual contender vs being content to ‘just get in’.

The whole gang. Except for adding Lucic and removing the guy who was a cancer. Adding a quality backup in Talbot. Elevating Dube and Kylington full time.

Plus it should have been clear to a couple guys they were moved out until the plug got pulled outside of Treliving’s hands.

[bubbsy]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

The whole gang. Except for adding Lucic and removing the guy who was a cancer. Adding a quality backup in Talbot. Elevating Dube and Kylington full time.

Plus it should have been clear to a couple guys they were moved out until the plug got pulled outside of Treliving’s hands.

I mean if one were to squint hard enough, perhaps lucic and a backup is what was needed in the tight checking latter half of the season and the series vs the avs......

Also, having deals leaked that includes who you were parting with sure must send a great msg to the players involved (not surprising to see the starts Brodie and a young guy like jankowski go thru). Furthermore, having deals continuously fall thru can also impact player perception of the franchise.

I don't think treliving has done a great job of having a gauge of this group and how to improve the team's direction nor the team's perception of its self.