[PGT] Yep, we’re as soft as toilet paper. Flames lose to bottom feeding Sharks 3-1.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Bingo

You're certainly welcome to your opinion. In fact I started this whole thing off saying I get that some don't want him as the architect of the change that is coming.

But yeah I'd say he's great, you don't have to.

But using Draisaitl is an interesting one as that contract was a massive over pay and partially responsible for the boost in contract values to RFAs ever since.

Well Draisaitl is only an overlay if other rfas continued to sign for below what they paid him. But other GM’s did not do that, they merely followed. The Flames will likely pay Tkachuk more than Draisaitl between now and 2025 and Draisaitl will most likely be the better player between the two. To me that makes the Draisaitl contract a good contract for Edmonton, they are getting him for below market value.

I would be curious in terms of RFAs who you think Treliving is better than on that list? Is he better than Chevaldayoff? Poile? Yzerman? Tallon?

I guess you said he is great but I see a number of GMs that are greater, so maybe it is like a participation ribbon for greatness.

[Flash Walken]

Bingo, in your estimation, what's a better RFA signing:

Tkachuk @ 7x3

Or

Draisaitl @ 8.5x8

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

Well Draisaitl is only an overlay if other rfas continued to sign for below what they paid him. But other GM’s did not do that, they merely followed. The Flames will likely pay Tkachuk more than Draisaitl between now and 2025 and Draisaitl will most likely be the better player between the two. To me that makes the Draisaitl contract a good contract for Edmonton, they are getting him for below market value.

I would be curious in terms of RFAs who you think Treliving is better than on that list? Is he better than Chevaldayoff? Poile? Yzerman? Tallon?

I guess you said he is great but I see a number of GMs that are greater, so maybe it is like a participation ribbon for greatness.

This could get tiring. I honestly don't have the interest to dig into every RFA signing in the last 7 years.

I said he was great at RFA signings, I'll stand by that. I didn't claim he won the RFA olympics.

The Draisiatil contract worked out, and that happens, but that doesn't mean it was a shrewd signing at the time. It was a massive overpay based on some pretty flawed statistics and it could have bit them in the ass.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Bingo, in your estimation, what's a better RFA signing:

Tkachuk @ 7x3

Or

Draisaitl @ 8.5x8

As a result or on the day of the signing?

Draisaitl was an overpay the day he signed it. It worked out famously for them, but you do that five times you get burned four of them.

Tkachuk was market and in line with the Point contract that was signed days earlier. Wouldn't call the Tkachuk contract a win for Treliving but he didn't pay above the market that was established.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Bingo

If you want to give the guy credit for luck, sure!

But it was a massive overpay at the time. Hell he didn't even pay him positionally correct as he treated him like a franchise center when he was a winger playing and only producing when playing with a generational talent.

Can I assume the first few lines were just honest questions assuming I was unaware, or were you trying to be an ass again?

The Flames paid 4.95 million for a guy who had a career high of 32 points at that time.

Flames paid Lindholm 4.85 million for a guy who had a career high of 45 points at the time.

And they recently paid Anderson 4.55 million for a guy who if he keeps his pace up this year will have a career high of 22 points.

I am pretty sure “luck” is a factor in all longterm RFA contracts.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

The Flames paid 4.95 million for a guy who had a career high of 32 points at that time.

Flames paid Lindholm 4.85 million for a guy who had a career high of 45 points at the time.

And they recently paid Anderson 4.55 million for a guy who if he keeps his pace up this year will have a career high of 22 points.

I am pretty sure “luck” is a factor in all longterm RFA contracts.

For sure.

Lindholm was paid market at the time though, not an overpay. His offensive explosion last year was certainly lucky, but I think the assumed an improvement.

Defensemen aren't generally paid on points, but role, so Andersson is paid assuming he's a top four defenseman. You find that to be a stretch?

So you agreed in the logic that was put in place on the day of the Draisaitl signing then? Or do you think they overpaid based on variables that they either chose to ignore or simply didn't understand?

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Bingo

As a result or on the day of the signing?

Draisaitl was an overpay the day he signed it. It worked out famously for them, but you do that five times you get burned four of them.

Tkachuk was market and in line with the Point contract that was signed days earlier. Wouldn't call the Tkachuk contract a win for Treliving but he didn't pay above the market that was established.

Somehow I don't think you would care if a flame was overpaid in years 1 and 2 of an 8byear deal if he was set to lead the entire league in points in year 3.

Call it a hunch.

[united]

He also caved to Sean Monahan, signing him to a higher AAV than both Barkov and MacKinnon which was dubious at best at the time and is gross with hindsight.

That signing is frequently thrown around as a great one for some reason, possibly due to people comparing it with UFAs or using present-day RFA comparables.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Somehow I don't think you would care if a flame was overpaid in years 1 and 2 of an 8byear deal if he was set to lead the entire league in points in year 3.

Call it a hunch.

That's changing the topic.

I'd be happy any time the Flames signed a contract and then had the player take off, to suggest otherwise is disingenuous.

My hunch though, if that happened, is you'd be on the other side saying Treliving shouldn't get any credit for getting lucky on a RFA signing.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Bingo

For sure.

Lindholm was paid market at the time though, not an overpay. His offensive explosion last year was certainly lucky, but I think the assumed an improvement.

Defensemen aren't generally paid on points, but role, so Andersson is paid assuming he's a top four defenseman. You find that to be a stretch?

So you agreed in the logic that was put in place on the day of the Draisaitl signing then? Or do you think they overpaid based on variables that they either chose to ignore or simply didn't understand?

Draisaitl was paid market rate for a winger who put up 77 points. It is generally in line as a percentage of the cap with what Tarasenko signed for 2 years earlier. Throw in a small bump for draft position (as the Flames did with Bennett on his more recent contract) and it is a perfectly reasonable contract.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

Draisaitl was paid market rate for a winger who put up 77 points. It is generally in line as a percentage of the cap with what Tarasenko signed for 2 years earlier. Throw in a small bump for draft position (as the Flames did with Bennett on his more recent contract) and it is a perfectly reasonable contract.

He was paid as a number one center. He was a winger.

Bennett was paid market based on last year's production.

Why the rabbit hole? I think it's pretty much agreed that Treliving's strength has been RFA signings. If you don't like the guy no problem, but are you trying to change my mind?

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Bingo

That's changing the topic.

I'd be happy any time the Flames signed a contract and then had the player take off, to suggest otherwise is disingenuous.

My hunch though, if that happened, is you'd be on the other side saying Treliving shouldn't get any credit for getting lucky on a RFA signing.

It's actually not changing the topic at all, just illustrating that right now in this conversation the homerism is dripping off of you that you can't tolerate the idea that there are other GMs out there signing comparably good RFA contracts because the argument that Tre is a good GM largely hinges on the argument that he's great at RFA contracts.

So the more examples of other good RFA deals being brought up eats into the idea that Trelivings RFA deals are a beacon. And if he's not great at RFA deals, and he's horrible at UFA deals and his trades are a mixed bag it starts to become really difficult to argue that he's a good GM.

And because it's the flames and the only thing that matters is being better than the oilers, it's REALLY difficult to argue about his RFA deals when walking punchline chiarelli has just as good if not better RFA deals. That simply can't be tolerated.

Draisaitl had 77 points the year prior to signing his deal.

Tkachuk had 77 points the year prior to signing his deal.

Signing Tkachuk to an 8.5x8 deal this summer would've been a good deal. Too bad it didn't happen though.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

It's actually not changing the topic at all, just illustrating that right now in this conversation the homerism is dripping off of you that you can't tolerate the idea that there are other GMs out there signing comparably good RFA contracts because the argument that Tre is a good GM largely hinges on the argument that he's great at RFA contracts.

So the more examples of other good RFA deals being brought up eats into the idea that Trelivings RFA deals are a beacon. And if he's not great at RFA deals, and he's horrible at UFA deals and his trades are a mixed bag it starts to become really difficult to argue that he's a good GM.

And because it's the flames and the only thing that matters is being better than the oilers, it's REALLY difficult to argue about his RFA deals when walking punchline chiarelli has just as good if not better RFA deals. That simply can't be tolerated.

Draisaitl had 77 points the year prior to signing his deal.

Tkachuk had 77 points the year prior to signing his deal.

Signing Tkachuk to an 8.5x8 deal this summer would've been a good deal. Too bad it didn't happen though.

Well I guess we're done then right?

Since you're going to marginalize my opinions into being a homer, and being such a rivalry guy that I can no longer make a point in a discussion maybe it's best you just stop replying to me.

You can find other like minded posters that don't bring an agenda at all to anything they wish to argue or discuss!

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Bingo

He was paid as a number one center. He was a winger.

Bennett was paid market based on last year's production.

Why the rabbit hole? I think it's pretty much agreed that Treliving's strength has been RFA signings. If you don't like the guy no problem, but are you trying to change my mind?

He was paid as a first line winger, he has a very similar contract to Tarasenko. He had very similar numbers to Tarasenko. Not sure why you think he was paid as a first line center, he was paid similar to other first line wingers over 8 years in a RFA situation.

Nobody agrees that his strength has been RFAs. When supporters like yourself are presented with evidence that there are many GM’s that are better than him you say you do not have time to see how the other GMs have done. There is zero chance you can show that he is in the top 3 GMs in the league for RFA signings, low chance you can even place him in the top 7.

Earlier you say he is great and everyone is entitled to their opinion. Then it became “it is pretty much agreed that his strength is RFAs”. I would say it is not agreed and it would be difficult to put him in the great category you said he was in and that it would be difficult to find 15 GM’s he is definitely better than. Which would put his strength right at average. I am not trying to change your mind, it would be nice to see a counter argument with some semblance of evidence from the “Treliving is great at RFA signings, it is a strength” that actually shows why he is better than his peers. Without that it is basically a meaningless statement.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

He was paid as a first line winger, he has a very similar contract to Tarasenko. He had very similar numbers to Tarasenko. Not sure why you think he was paid as a first line center, he was paid similar to other first line wingers over 8 years in a RFA situation.

Nobody agrees that his strength has been RFAs. When supporters like yourself are presented with evidence that there are many GM’s that are better than him you say you do not have time to see how the other GMs have done. There is zero chance you can show that he is in the top 3 GMs in the league for RFA signings, low chance you can even place him in the top 7.

Earlier you say he is great and everyone is entitled to their opinion. Then it became “it is pretty much agreed that his strength is RFAs”. I would say it is not agreed and it would be difficult to put him in the great category you said he was in and that it would be difficult to find 15 GM’s he is definitely better than. Which would put his strength right at average. I am not trying to change your mind, it would be nice to see a counter argument with some semblance of evidence from the “Treliving is great at RFA signings, it is a strength” that actually shows why he is better than his peers. Without that it is basically a meaningless statement.

Draisaitl was paid as if he carried a line when he had zero history of doing that.

When did I mention 15 GMs? You have an issue with me saying "it is pretty much agreed" in the same post where you claim "nobody agrees". That's pretty rich.

But as I said I couldn't care less that you don't like Treliving. It's a defendable position in my mind. I don't have to agree with it though, or do I not count enough to flip that switch away from "nobody"?

[Flash Walken]

Boiling down an argument to 'you must not like the guy' really betrays the lack of evidence you have to justify your opinion that he's great at RFA signings.

Just debate the points, you don't have to turn everything personal.

[blender]

I would just like to add that earlier in the season Treliving described himself as doing a "horse####" job of GMing the Flames. Things have not improved since then and I think he would be willing to agree that his performance has not been good.
The NHL is the big league, a show me league, the elite. He is the GENERAL MANAGER. The results are his to own.
I don't think he needs anyone to defend him at this point so why bother with the exercise.

Not to say he could not turn it around, or that he must be fired or anything else. He just hasn't done a good enough job to date.

[Rando]

Originally Posted by united

He also caved to Sean Monahan, signing him to a higher AAV than both Barkov and MacKinnon which was dubious at best at the time and is gross with hindsight.

Player A
Year One - 8 Goals 24 Points
Y2 - 16G 36 Points
Y3 - 28G 59P
Total - 52G 119P

Player B
Y1 - 24G 63P
Y2 - 14G 38P
Y3 - 21G 52P
Total - 59G 153P

Player C
Y1 - 22G 34P
Y2 - 31G 62P
Y3 - 27G 62P
Total - 80G 159P

Player C had the highest goal total of the three players and also the most points. Also the only one to break 30 goals in nine combined seasons. Which one should've gotten the bigger contract?

Important to note player A is a UFA in 2022, players B and C one year later in 2023. Should that not be a major factor when comparing contracts?

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by blender

I would just like to add that earlier in the season Treliving described himself as doing a "horse####" job of GMing the Flames. Things have not improved since then and I think he would be willing to agree that his performance has not been good.
The NHL is the big league, a show me league, the elite. He is the GENERAL MANAGER. The results are his to own.
I don't think he needs anyone to defend him at this point so why bother with the exercise.

Not to say he could not turn it around, or that he must be fired or anything else. He just hasn't done a good enough job to date.

Yeah, I think if anyone looks at the last 18 or so months - Treliving just hasn't been good enough. He's accomplished almost nothing, so it was nice for him to call himself out publicly and be accountable for that.

...but we are still waiting for him to get back to executing at a high level. This team is very obviously not good enough, and this entire season has been pretty directionless for the organization.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Boiling down an argument to 'you must not like the guy' really betrays the lack of evidence you have to justify your opinion that he's great at RFA signings.

Just debate the points, you don't have to turn everything personal.

You just called me a homer ... something about dripping homerism, and being jaded by a rivalry.

Now you're telling me not to make it personal. Do you ever proofread yourself?

I tried over and over to give my Draisaitl reasoning, you just ignored it and marginalized my opinion.

On you man.