[PGT] Yep, we’re as soft as toilet paper. Flames lose to bottom feeding Sharks 3-1.

[calgaryfox]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

If it was me, I'd put Johnny-Lindholm-Tkachuk together and hope the best players playing together makes a difference. At this point what else is there to lose?

Monahan is providing Johnny with zero help as he's not asserting himself in anyway on the game. An undersized winger needs help physically and my best guess is that he's just tired of going it alone. Sorry, but your supposed number 1 centre should be making an impact in many ways and Monahan is nothing more than a wet, flaccid noodle for this franchise. The Flames are never winning in the post season with a player like him in anything beyond a secondary role.

Once Monahan is taken out of his comfort zone on the first line and he'ss required to be more defensive by checking and being more physical- rather than just being a sniper - he is nothing more than an $80,000 US per game boat anchor. He has zero defensive awareness, milk can turn faster and he is the least engaged core player we have.

[Flash Walken]

When people say Treliving has more good trades than bad, is that a volume judgement that say 8 out of 15 trades has been a win, or is that an assessment on aggregate that the flames have traded away less value than they've received in return across all of his trades?

Because his February to July 1st 2017 time period is one of the worst general managing periods in the history of this team, certainly when it comes to just trades.

Picks out:

1st
3x2nd
2x3rd
5th
6th

For:

Lazar
Stone
Smith
Hamonic
Lack

I mean, that's gotta be one of the worst value propositions in team history, right?

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by CalgaryFan1988

Having Buddy on RW with Monahan and JG reminds me so much of the days David Moss was 1st line C. Pathetic RW depth.

Moss got 20 in the show before that occurred. It's way worse than that.

[DuffMan]

maybe the team just needs a new coach every month, they seem to do well when the coach is new, but then go back to their couldn't give a crap selves.
I mean, what has changed since Peters got fired and Ward took over. didn't they go on a 7 game win streak or so?

[Toonage]

^ We laugh but this would get them into the playoffs this season, which is the desired result.

* cough* Laviolette * cough*

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

When people say Treliving has more good trades than bad, is that a volume judgement that say 8 out of 15 trades has been a win, or is that an assessment on aggregate that the flames have traded away less value than they've received in return across all of his trades?

Because his February to July 1st 2017 time period is one of the worst general managing periods in the history of this team, certainly when it comes to just trades.

Picks out:

1st
3x2nd
2x3rd
5th
6th

For:

Lazar
Stone
Smith
Hamonic
Lack

I mean, that's gotta be one of the worst value propositions in team history, right?

It's basically a Hamonic trade and then some depth moves.

I get it you don't like the Hamonic trade, but to somehow say that it represents some major trend is a bit much. Take out the Hamonic trade, and it becomes:

2nd
2x3rd
5th
6th


Lazar
Stone
Smith
Lack
7th (from lack trade)

Smith was the starting goalie for 2 years, and was quite good the first year.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by DuffMan

maybe the team just needs a new coach every month, they seem to do well when the coach is new, but then go back to their couldn't give a crap selves.
I mean, what has changed since Peters got fired and Ward took over. didn't they go on a 7 game win streak or so?

Yes. But they also went on a 5 game winning streak in January. Which was games 16-20 into his tenure.

They are inconsistent lately - I'd say 3 of the last 6 have been good efforts, or 6 of their last 10.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by blankall

It's basically a Hamonic trade and then some depth moves.

I get it you don't like the Hamonic trade, but to somehow say that it represents some major trend is a bit much. Take out the Hamonic trade, and it becomes:

2nd
2x3rd
5th
6th


Lazar
Stone
Smith
Lack
7th (from lack trade)

Smith was the starting goalie for 2 years, and was quite good the first year.

Plus, I don't see how a six month period three years ago is some sort of a trend. And, whether you assess his trades on wins versus losses or vlaue over the whole tenure, you have to include his early deals to get picks for Glencross, Hudler and Sven (huge value) and his last big move to get Hanifin and Lindholm.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Plus, I don't see how a six month period three years ago is some sort of a trend. And, whether you assess his trades on wins versus losses or vlaue over the whole tenure, you have to include his early deals to get picks for Glencross, Hudler and Sven (huge value) and his last big move to get Hanifin and Lindholm.

Hanifin and lindholm for Dougie is still a very interesting trade. Not as much of a win now as we were saying last year. I would not want to lose Lindholm on this roster but Dougie really emerged this season and really came onto his potential. I think we could really use a dougie on the back end. Sucks that Hanifin has really choked this year too, he was supposed to be the icing on the cake but he looks like he could be a dud.

I know flash is a downer but he has a bit of a point. Tre is much more mixed bag success wise than we claim around here. RFA contracts he seems to excel at the most, but that is balanced by some truly atrocious UFA contracts. If you tweak your trade opinions to mediocre, he loses his luster pretty quickly. Not yet final sutter years bad but probably not even at fletcher level.

[DeluxeMoustache]

I think I am hearing that Tre is more of a grinder than a wizard

Hopefully someone with photoshop skills updates the ‘will it blend?’ meme with Ward

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

I think I am hearing that Tre is more of a grinder than a wizard

Hopefully someone with photoshop skills updates the ‘will it blend?’ meme with Ward

This is my thinking as well. He's a tireless worker but at the end of the day he's not as skilled a talent evaluator as some of his peers. Top NHL GM's don't get fleeced by Garth Snow.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

This is my thinking as well. He's a tireless worker but at the end of the day he's not as skilled a talent evaluator as some of his peers. Top NHL GM's don't get fleeced by Garth Snow.

The one thing that kills me is that overpayment for Hamonic.

So you're willing to spend a 1st and two 2nd round picks on a #3/#4 defenceman - but you're not willing to spend that/less than that on Mark Stone or Taylor Hall?

I know Hamonic's contract held value over what Stone/Hall's UFA deals are/will be - but we're clearly discussing different tiers of players here. I think Tree just fell in love with a player and then got sucked into a bidding war...and I think he did it for the wrong player at the wrong time.

[zamler]

Originally Posted by Huntingwhale

That is 100% on the players.

Is it?

He needs to get the coaching hire RIGHT this time.

If the players are 100% responsible then we have the right coach.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Hanifin and lindholm for Dougie is still a very interesting trade. Not as much of a win now as we were saying last year. I would not want to lose Lindholm on this roster but Dougie really emerged this season and really came onto his potential. I think we could really use a dougie on the back end. Sucks that Hanifin has really choked this year too, he was supposed to be the icing on the cake but he looks like he could be a dud.

I know flash is a downer but he has a bit of a point. Tre is much more mixed bag success wise than we claim around here. RFA contracts he seems to excel at the most, but that is balanced by some truly atrocious UFA contracts. If you tweak your trade opinions to mediocre, he loses his luster pretty quickly. Not yet final sutter years bad but probably not even at fletcher level.

I think there's some selective memory about Hamilton. He was not a very effective player here, points be damned. Whether he would have grown into the role is unknown. But his subtraction put Brodie back on track and I don't think Hanifin is anywhere near a finished product. And for all the improvement in Hamiton's play this year, Lindholm's has as well. I think that trade has yet to be fully evaluated, since Hamilton's year last year wasn't as good as the couple years before. What I do know is that they are minus Ferland, and up the couple juniors they ended up with for Fox.

[Psytic]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

When people say Treliving has more good trades than bad, is that a volume judgement that say 8 out of 15 trades has been a win, or is that an assessment on aggregate that the flames have traded away less value than they've received in return across all of his trades?

Because his February to July 1st 2017 time period is one of the worst general managing periods in the history of this team, certainly when it comes to just trades.

Picks out:

1st
3x2nd
2x3rd
5th
6th

For:

Lazar
Stone
Smith
Hamonic
Lack

I mean, that's gotta be one of the worst value propositions in team history, right?

Hahahaha. Wow to see it on paper like this...Damn BT... This is his issue though. He does a pick here or a pick there which isn't enough to bring in a quality player but man does it start to add up over time. Just bite the bullet for quality instead of 100 minor deals eroding the Flames assets and making them no better.

[Rando]

Treliving went bargain hunting on goalies and has whiffed on coaching. Rittich hit for him but if I recall correctly he wanted to wait a year to sign him from Europe, forget the exact story there.

He's done some good but given away picks far too easily. Walken's list omitted Brian Elliot for a 2nd as well.

[Red Potato Standing By]

Hindsight Elliot deal was bad , but at the time with the year that Elliot was coming off of it was probably fair value.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I think both positions are fair.

If you see this as a build issue then you probably want a different guy doing the building. I get that.

If you see this as an execution issue, and think the team that was built makes sense to some degree then it's a different take, and also an acceptable view.

I don't see managing hockey teams as a 100% profession. They all make mistakes. They all draft a guy not as good as they could have drafted. Make bad UFA signings, and have deals not work out.

With Treliving I personally see a guy that has improved the drafting, the development, has been great on RFA signings and has a decent trade record.

Would love to go back and strike Brouwer and Neal from the record like everyone, and hope he's taken steps to rectify this area going forward.

So I keep him.

But just my opinion, I see the other side too.

I do not understand which RFA signings are great outside of Lindholm. Great seems to imply that you are getting more value than other GM’s are getting for similar signings. Monahan signed a similar deal to every other RFA that year. Gaudreau lacked leverage in his negotiations they reduced his ability to get more money but that contract could easily be put in the good category that summer. Hamilton and Hanifin were basically going each at the going rate at the time. Hamilton has proven to outperform his deal but Hanifin has not done that at this stage. Tkachuk was the exact same deal as most other RFAs this offseason with no noticeable savings. Rittich was signed to take him right to UFA at 2.75

Other RFA contracts include Bouma’s 3 year 6.6 million, Bennett’s 2.55 million a year, Ferland on a two year deal, Lazar’s two year deal.

Out of all of those deals I see one great deal, a bunch of deals that are average or the same as any other GM signed that offseason, and a stinker in Bouma. It seems like a pretty average record in my opinion. I would say that Cheveldayoff has a much better record on RFA’s for instance.

[Strange Brew]

On the Hamonic trade, I just think Treliving placed too much value on the perceived great value contract.

While I believe they whiffed on evaluating Hamonic's talent, IMO the bigger sin is overpaying for the cap flexibility while you still were in building mode. That was the unforced error.

I think we've seen he's comfortable trading picks for players, and he did a nice job of auctioning off our pending UFA's.

But most of the players he has moved are guys who didn't want to be here (Neal and Hamilton are examples). He hasn't really pulled the trigger on a real tough trade that is going to hurt.

[Kovaz]

I think the overlooked aspect of the Hamonic trade is that doing nothing meant playing Michael Stone or Dennis Wideman in the top-4. When your options are overpaying for a player you need or going into the season with a big hole in your roster, you're kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place.