Women's professional hockey - will it ever work?

[Derek Sutton]

Originally Posted by TheSquatch

Let me re-word Frankster's point, if I am seeing it correctly:

His claim isn't that Calgary is worse than other places at supporting other forms of hockey than top-tier-pro. His claim is that the support isn't huge, and this is backed up by the fact that the arena is mostly empty.

"Ahh, but 6000 people at a Hitmen game is better than the Brampton Beavers draw, so support is high!"

No. That's the wrong conclusion. The better conclusion to draw is that even in a hockey-mad large center like calgary, interest in hockey other than top-tier pro is limited, and it's even more limited anywhere else. There isn't enough interest here, and the objectively weak (numbers) attendance rather than the subjecively strong (we get more people to the rink than the Sarnia Shinglers or whoever prove that.

One could argue that UofC is better hockey and draws way less then the Hitmen. SAIT, equal level of hockey drawing nowhere near what the Hitmen do. Go one step down and the Canucks draw nothing. All excellent levels of hockey and other then family and friends and some of the student body, nobody goes.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by TheSquatch

Let me re-word Frankster's point, if I am seeing it correctly:

His claim isn't that Calgary is worse than other places at supporting other forms of hockey than top-tier-pro. His claim is that the support isn't huge, and this is backed up by the fact that the arena is mostly empty.

"Ahh, but 6000 people at a Hitmen game is better than the Brampton Beavers draw, so support is high!"

No. That's the wrong conclusion. The better conclusion to draw is that even in a hockey-mad large center like calgary, interest in hockey other than top-tier pro is limited, and it's even more limited anywhere else. There isn't enough interest here, and the objectively weak (numbers) attendance rather than the subjecively strong (we get more people to the rink than the Sarnia Shinglers or whoever prove that.

That wasn't his argument. His argument was that "if it isn't the Flames, Calgary won't properly support hockey". So yes, his claim very much was that Calgary is worse than other markets at supporting hockey. He was trying to put down the market itself on the basis of junior hockey not drawing what he, in his complete ignorance, thinks it should - despite the fact that Calgary has been a top two market in the WHL and top five in Canada for two decade.

Your argument attempts to present a level of nuance that his doesn't. It is certainly true that various tiers of the game will have differing support levels. So the question for women's hockey is what that level is.

[Hoop27]

The question I have never heard a real answer to is why don't women pack the stands for women's games?

No reason they shouldn't be drawing thousands if there was interest. Not to mention the revenue that would generate. It can be damn good hockey.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by Hoop27

The question I have never heard a real answer to is why don't women pack the stands for women's games?

No reason they shouldn't be drawing thousands if there was interest. Not to mention the revenue that would generate. It can be damn good hockey.

I believe the market is saturated.

1 NHL team
1 Major junior team
2 CIS Men's teams
2 CIS Women's teams
2 Junior A teams
Several surrounding area Junior A/B teams
Several surrounding area Midget AAA teams.

Where would a pro Women's team rank in this list in terms of quality? That is up for debate.

In a metro area of 1.3MM people, that is a lot of hockey entertainment available to us. That is not up for debate.

Don't forget the CFL is the 2nd best football league in the world, and the CanPL soccer is picking up a lot of steam.

[Hoop27]

My wife has asked me to go to the Flames, Stamps, Roughnecks, and Dawgs. When I brought up the Inferno I got nothing.

I honestly have no idea why.

[GreenLantern2814]

If Women's hockey is to take off, the first thing they need to do is allow hitting.

Women have a division in the UFC, I think the notion that they can't take a hit when armoured up, with full cages, is antiquated.

Because it is good hockey. It's intense. There's end to end action and great saves. Only, two girls go into the corner and one comes out after a clean hit, and now one side is down a player.

Why?

The NHL has to be behind this league financially, and they need to hit. Otherwise, it's doomed to failure.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

I believe the market is saturated.

1 NHL team
1 Major junior team
2 CIS Men's teams
2 CIS Women's teams
2 Junior A teams
Several surrounding area Junior A/B teams
Several surrounding area Midget AAA teams.

Where would a pro Women's team rank in this list in terms of quality? That is up for debate.

In a metro area of 1.3MM people, that is a lot of hockey entertainment available to us. That is not up for debate.

Don't forget the CFL is the 2nd best football league in the world, and the CanPL soccer is picking up a lot of steam.

It should be an East coast non-NHL city league.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Hoop27

The question I have never heard a real answer to is why don't women pack the stands for women's games?

No reason they shouldn't be drawing thousands if there was interest. Not to mention the revenue that would generate. It can be damn good hockey.

Ehh, I'm not sure there is a gender requirement for women to support women's hockey. Female hockey fans are likely no different than male in that, by and large, they want to watch the best version available. That's still the men's pro game.

[BigFlameDog]

Originally Posted by Hoop27

The question I have never heard a real answer to is why don't women pack the stands for women's games?

No reason they shouldn't be drawing thousands if there was interest. Not to mention the revenue that would generate. It can be damn good hockey.

I know the scheduling was a large issue. I have two girls who play and loved going to Inferno games but a lot of the time the games were right in the prime time Minor hockey slots or too late.

We made efforts and usually got to a couple a year but a lot of times the schedule just didn't match up. Inferno on a budget had no buying power maybe with a machine behind them they can afford better slots?

[MillerTime GFG]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

I believe the market is saturated.

1 NHL team
1 Major junior team
2 CIS Men's teams
2 CIS Women's teams
2 Junior A teams
Several surrounding area Junior A/B teams
Several surrounding area Midget AAA teams.

Where would a pro Women's team rank in this list in terms of quality? That is up for debate.

In a metro area of 1.3MM people, that is a lot of hockey entertainment available to us. That is not up for debate.

Don't forget the CFL is the 2nd best football league in the world, and the CanPL soccer is picking up a lot of steam.

Every one of those teams, aside from the two CIS (now called "U-Sports") women's teams, would beat a women's professional team. The women often play exhibition games against Midget AAA teams in pre-tourney warmup, and generally lose.

[soulchoice]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

I believe the market is saturated.

1 NHL team
1 Major junior team
2 CIS Men's teams
2 CIS Women's teams
2 Junior A teams
Several surrounding area Junior A/B teams
Several surrounding area Midget AAA teams.

Where would a pro Women's team rank in this list in terms of quality? That is up for debate.

In a metro area of 1.3MM people, that is a lot of hockey entertainment available to us. That is not up for debate.

Don't forget the CFL is the 2nd best football league in the world, and the CanPL soccer is picking up a lot of steam.

As far as the quality/level of overall play, it would rank second last, just above the 2 CIS womens hockey teams. Dont forget there is the ACAC(Sait) as well, not to mention Junior C Mens hockey and the senior Mens Ranchlands hockey league, which is AA mens.

[Flamenspiel]

Nm

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Ehh, I'm not sure there is a gender requirement for women to support women's hockey. Female hockey fans are likely no different than male in that, by and large, they want to watch the best version available. That's still the men's pro game.

I agree, other than for young girls who may see a league they can aspire to and watch on that basis.

[Hoop27]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Ehh, I'm not sure there is a gender requirement for women to support women's hockey. Female hockey fans are likely no different than male in that, by and large, they want to watch the best version available. That's still the men's pro game.

That at least makes some sense and I suppose is the answer.

[FiveSeven]

I think a simple poll would put this issue to bed. No chance it would ever work IMO.

Everyone I've talked to about the topic, 100% said they wouldn't watch.
They want to see the best in the world play, regardless of gender.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by FiveSeven

I think a simple poll would put this issue to bed. No chance it would ever work IMO.

Everyone I've talked to about the topic, 100% said they wouldn't watch.
They want to see the best in the world play, regardless of gender.

I don't need to watch the best in the world play to enjoy the sport, if I did I wouldn't be a fan of the Calgary Flames.

But it needs to be the same game, more or less.

Let the girls hit. There's zero good reason for why they can't. And you will never sell tickets to a 'professional' hockey game that doesn't allow hitting. It's not the same game at that point, it's shinny.

[CliffFletcher]

Everyone agrees women's professional hockey is a vital and necessary sport... for other people to spend their time and money on.

[soulchoice]

Originally Posted by MillerTime GFG

Every one of those teams, aside from the two CIS (now called "U-Sports") women's teams, would beat a women's professional team. The women often play exhibition games against Midget AAA teams in pre-tourney warmup, and generally lose.

Keep in mind even when they play the AAA boys teams, the boys are at a disadvantage being they aren't allowed to hit. It's an entirely different game when it's non contact. Especially since these boys have been playing contact hockey since they were 12/13. If it was contact hockey, no chance the women's teams would even come close to winning.

As far as those who state the womens game would be better if there was contact allowed. These pro women for the most part have never played contact hockey, so it's not like the top players currently would be able to just adjust that quickly. Learning to play contact, hitting and absorbing a hit starts at a young age. Itd be the next generation of girls who would benefit from instituting contact as they can learn that fundamental from a young age. Good luck figuring it out at 25.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

I believe the market is saturated.

1 NHL team
1 Major junior team
2 CIS Men's teams
2 CIS Women's teams
2 Junior A teams
Several surrounding area Junior A/B teams
Several surrounding area Midget AAA teams.

Where would a pro Women's team rank in this list in terms of quality? That is up for debate.

In a metro area of 1.3MM people, that is a lot of hockey entertainment available to us. That is not up for debate.

Don't forget the CFL is the 2nd best football league in the world, and the CanPL soccer is picking up a lot of steam.

I think they get outdrawn by the Calgary Rage woman's tackle football team, and they ask for like 5 to 10 bucks a game.

[chedder]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Let the girls hit. There's zero good reason for why they can't. And you will never sell tickets to a 'professional' hockey game that doesn't allow hitting. It's not the same game at that point, it's shinny.

My 15 year old daughter asked me during the all star women's game, "why is there no hitting and why are they wearing full cages?" She thought both were silly.