[PGT] Oilers 8 Flames 3 everything is fine

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by stang

Is there any truth to this? Or is it that fans want it to be true so it must be true?

Hinted by Treliving, without confirmation.

Recently Duhatchek did his Athletic expansion draft article and had Lucic waiving as well.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

The reason you talk about Ward is because if two main things you want coaches to do. Planning and motivating.

Johnny has skills. If “the book is out on him”, why isn’t the book “out” on guys like Patrick Kane and Mitch Marner? Is Johnny just too stupid to think of things on his own? Who watches video and gives the players advice about how to adjust their game? Who is directing Johnny’s linemates on where to go?

Generally agree with your points but I just think we have a different point of view on how players develop. I think the impact of coaches on an individual is unpredictable and that's because ultimately players need to fight the mental inertia in their game to work hard and develop new habits.

For example, Gaudreau isn't scoring less on that super-sharp-angle shot because his aim has suddenly gone bad. More likely is that goalies and defenders have figured out he'll resort to that if he's funneled to certain parts of the ice. Are we to believe he hasn't been provided video, stats and coaching suggestions about this play? I suspect he has. And I'd be willing to bet he's been provided some suggestions to mix up that play and keep his options open. So the next step is for Johnny to mentally commit and work to develop new habits. Some good players fight hard through these hurdles and develop their games whereas others keep wondering why their skill isn't working as well as it used to.

At least that's how I see things. I appreciated your post.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

There are so many ways to answer this, so I’ll pick a few points
- the difference between successful pros and people with potential is the ability to perform consistently, day in and day out. Yes it is the job of the coach to find ways to motivate when things get stale, settled, etc.
- I noticed you did not touch on tactics. As teams establish their identity, they are better understood by their opponents.
- it is demotivating to implement a game plan and have it be unsuccessful, for whatever reason (ex. a garbage roster trying to out score leaky Jonas Hiller, or a stupid slow predictable Gulutzan offence built from breakouts coddling Mike Smith’s need to handle the puck)
- this is compounded when things are otherwise not fun (Hartley’s hardass approach, risk averse d-first Brent Sutter style play, whatever bug is up Johnny’s ass)

When the message is to sacrifice things that work, for the greater benefit of the team, and the results are way worse than they were prior to the coaching, yeah I think it’s on the coach to figure out how to add motivation.

I'd still say that failure to work a game plan properly is on the players. When the Flames have been successful this season it's because they've done as they were told. When they are not successful, it's pretty obvious that certain players are sliding into old habits and ways of doing things.

Tactically, I don't see a whole lot of flaws in the approaches of various coaches. They are simply different styles, and each should have worked with this group. But yeah, my point was about motivation and that the guy you held up as an exemplar, Hartley, wore out his welcome, especially with guys who are still central to the team. At some point, like I said, the character of the team has to be questioned. Especially the team's star player.

[Bingo]

Lucic was never going to wow us with his ability to get up and down the ice, or dangle through defenders, but I and many I've had discussions with over the past week really notice a decline in his play since the all star break.

Did he hurt himself working out?
Is his back condition getting worse?

I'm like many and disappointed that he's literally done nothing in the two Edmonton games despite the chaos going on. If the reasoning is he doesn't want to it's a problem since that's why he was acquired. If the reason is past buddies, he had better get that sorted out as that's why he was acquired.

But it seems to obvious that he would know that. I'm starting to wonder if his back is getting to the point where he's not even sure if he can fight. His puck handling has taken a huge step back along with his footspeed in recent games. Maybe he's too stiff to actually throw them now?

Just a theory anyway.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I'd still say that failure to work a game plan properly is on the players. When the Flames have been successful this season it's because they've done as they were told. When they are not successful, it's pretty obvious that certain players are sliding into old habits and ways of doing things.

Tactically, I don't see a whole lot of flaws in the approaches of various coaches. They are simply different styles, and each should have worked with this group. But yeah, my point was about motivation and that the guy you held up as an exemplar, Hartley, wore out his welcome, especially with guys who are still central to the team. At some point, like I said, the character of the team has to be questioned. Especially the team's star player.

Sorry, I understand why you say that but just can’t come around to agreeing with this. I have so many times seen the Flames get the puck in their zone, go D to D wide and forwards stop at the far blue line, and turn the puck over within 5 seconds. That has been repeated so many times that it is coached. It’s too often ineffective.

Johnny skating in to 3 guys is also a function of the game plan. Gio starts skating out of the zone, does the sideways turn, drops it way back to Johnny, who surveys his options and tries to work up a head of steam while his teammates watch and hope something happens, and the opposition sits there licking their chops because Johnny has nobody moving with him, so a large proportion of the time they can just outnumber him, keeping their eye open for the little backhand pass. That’s a system issue, another thing they practice, and it is countered way too often.

Now once in a while things do work. The other teams have humans who miss their assignments too, and sometimes Johnny makes a silky play, but in general, you must recognize these two examples as things you have seen many, many times this year.

That’s not anything to do with motivation, those are elements of a game plan that aren’t working often enough. And being ineffective becomes frustrating and demotivating

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Sorry, I understand why you say that but just can’t come around to agreeing with this. I have so many times seen the Flames get the puck in their zone, go D to D wide and forwards stop at the far blue line, and turn the puck over within 5 seconds. That has been repeated so many times that it is coached. It’s too often ineffective.

Johnny skating in to 3 guys is also a function of the game plan. Gio starts skating out of the zone, does the sideways turn, drops it way back to Johnny, who surveys his options and tries to work up a head of steam while his teammates watch and hope something happens, and the opposition sits there licking their chops because Johnny has nobody moving with him, so a large proportion of the time they can just outnumber him, keeping their eye open for the little backhand pass. That’s a system issue, another thing they practice, and it is countered way too often.

Now once in a while things do work. The other teams have humans who miss their assignments too, and sometimes Johnny makes a silky play, but in general, you must recognize these two examples as things you have seen many, many times this year.

That’s not anything to do with motivation, those are elements of a game plan that aren’t working often enough. And being ineffective becomes frustrating and demotivating

I just don't agree those things are game planned. I think they are execution based. The D to D happens when the forwards have flown the zone and aren't supporting the exit. Of course, that's not on camera all the time, but that's what's happening. Forwards, especially JG, are cheating. That's not coached - it wasn't Peters' system and Wards has been the same as afar as I can tell. The Gaudreau button hook is certainly not coached. Ward wants pucks to the net - he's said as much.

[GordonBlue]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Lucic was never going to wow us with his ability to get up and down the ice, or dangle through defenders, but I and many I've had discussions with over the past week really notice a decline in his play since the all star break.

Did he hurt himself working out?
Is his back condition getting worse?

I'm like many and disappointed that he's literally done nothing in the two Edmonton games despite the chaos going on. If the reasoning is he doesn't want to it's a problem since that's why he was acquired. If the reason is past buddies, he had better get that sorted out as that's why he was acquired.

But it seems to obvious that he would know that. I'm starting to wonder if his back is getting to the point where he's not even sure if he can fight. His puck handling has taken a huge step back along with his footspeed in recent games. Maybe he's too stiff to actually throw them now?

Just a theory anyway.

Right now you have the Lucic we had in Edmonton. Someone who appears to not care and is just going through the motions.

not nice to wish bad on someone, but shouldn't Calgary fans kind of hope it's his back getting worse? then you can maybe get him on LTIR.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

Generally agree with your points but I just think we have a different point of view on how players develop. I think the impact of coaches on an individual is unpredictable and that's because ultimately players need to fight the mental inertia in their game to work hard and develop new habits.

For example, Gaudreau isn't scoring less on that super-sharp-angle shot because his aim has suddenly gone bad. More likely is that goalies and defenders have figured out he'll resort to that if he's funneled to certain parts of the ice. Are we to believe he hasn't been provided video, stats and coaching suggestions about this play? I suspect he has. And I'd be willing to bet he's been provided some suggestions to mix up that play and keep his options open. So the next step is for Johnny to mentally commit and work to develop new habits. Some good players fight hard through these hurdles and develop their games whereas others keep wondering why their skill isn't working as well as it used to.

At least that's how I see things. I appreciated your post.

Thanks. I appreciate that perspective.

It is frustrating as a fan to see him neutralized in many different ways, and we obviously are not the only people seeing it.

It would be great to know how the coaches have tried to help him, what he is doing about it, and generally what’s actually going on in Johnny’s head.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by GordonBlue

Right now you have the Lucic we had in Edmonton. Someone who appears to not care and is just going through the motions.

not nice to wish bad on someone, but shouldn't Calgary fans kind of hope it's his back getting worse? then you can maybe get him on LTIR.

He's not the same guy he was earlier in the season though.

He wasn't an impact play driving presence, but he was a complimentary get the puck out, and not hurt you five on five player.

Now he has clearly lost a step, and his hands are gone.

Does make me wonder.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Bingo

He's not the same guy he was earlier in the season though.

He wasn't an impact play driving presence, but he was a complimentary get the puck out, and not hurt you five on five player.

Now he has clearly lost a step, and his hands are gone.

Does make me wonder.

I think it's more just part of a long season, and we're in the dog days. I think Lucic's play will revert back to what it was earlier as POs get closer.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I just don't agree those things are game planned. I think they are execution based. The D to D happens when the forwards have flown the zone and aren't supporting the exit. Of course, that's not on camera all the time, but that's what's happening. Forwards, especially JG, are cheating. That's not coached - it wasn't Peters' system and Wards has been the same as afar as I can tell. The Gaudreau button hook is certainly not coached. Ward wants pucks to the net - he's said as much.

Well we can agree to disagree. I have been to my share of games and you can see what is happening. Often you see the forwards begin to break once the Flames get possession and the D to D follows. You call it forwards cheating, I see it as a conservative transition game. There is coaching there. The D are deliberately wide and in fact that was something exploited by Edmonton early last game.

Even if it was a failure to execute as you believe, isn’t it up to the coach to recognize this, point it out, and equip them with corrections?

[bubbsy]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

Generally agree with your points but I just think we have a different point of view on how players develop. I think the impact of coaches on an individual is unpredictable and that's because ultimately players need to fight the mental inertia in their game to work hard and develop new habits.

For example, Gaudreau isn't scoring less on that super-sharp-angle shot because his aim has suddenly gone bad. More likely is that goalies and defenders have figured out he'll resort to that if he's funneled to certain parts of the ice. Are we to believe he hasn't been provided video, stats and coaching suggestions about this play? I suspect he has. And I'd be willing to bet he's been provided some suggestions to mix up that play and keep his options open. So the next step is for Johnny to mentally commit and work to develop new habits. Some good players fight hard through these hurdles and develop their games whereas others keep wondering why their skill isn't working as well as it used to.

At least that's how I see things. I appreciated your post.

Gaudreau has definitely been figured out. He'll come in wide on the left wing, where he basically has 3 plays:
1) Attempt the dipsy doodle to get inside the dman and attack the net
2) Button hook back, and look to pass to some one in the slot, cross seam, or just back to the dman
3) Continue going wide, carry puck behind the net

Dmen are definitely playing more conservatively and not giving him option 1. Option 2, is is HIGHEST utilized play, so if the opposition is in position, as long as everyone covering their intended man/lanes this is not a high risk. Option 3 is extremely limited, as now he's got himself a board battle if he can't beat the dman wide, as such, his best option at that point is the extremely low % bad angle shot.

Here's where I think Gaudreau's size is really a problem. Other players always have the chip the puck behind the d and try to win the puck back play. Gaudreau simply can't make these kind of plays, as it's a no-contest puck battle against him. He just isn't that kind of player. As much as we'd like to see it, he isn't willing to get into any kind of contact along the boards.

I think the NHL figured that out late last year, and obviously the avs. It's not a huge secret. Playing smaller skill guys physically is a no brainer as you get into tighter checking/playoff hockey. However, I do think Gaudreau has realized he's hit a wall in the league also.

I think he can still be a tier 1 player in the league, however, he does need another play driving player on his line to take some of the heat off. When the flames did NOTHING in the offseason, I think gaudreau has hit a frustration point, where it's kind of like being told to continue trying to hammer a square peg into a round hole repeatedly.

Him paired up with Monahan, and whoever else on this roster on the RW, is NOT going to get him out of this. The flames just don't have a high end puck distributing center. Backlund, well not only has he greatly regressed but he has always been better suited as a responsible, cycling the puck type game. I think him playing with a Center who can carry the puck thru transition themselves and drive the offence would bring less heat/focus on him, which would allow him to be more effective/successful in his above 3 plays.

Unfortunately, this is why I think flames need to trade Gaudreau. Getting that kind of Center is damn near impossible by trade/free agency. Every Center that can play that game has to be drafted (usually in the top 5-10) and once a team has this, they are rarely traded or hit free agency. A trade to a team like buffalo this summer makes a lot of sense in my mind. They have that C already, and are desperate to get back to the playoffs. How many other teams fall into that scenario (ie. a team that has a top level C, and are willing to part with assets to get that elite winger)??

[Flash Walken]

Lucic looks like basically the exact same player to me.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Lucic looks like basically the exact same player to me.

We all see the game differently I guess ... part of being a fan.

He used to be money on break out passes, could contribute on the cycle, and although he had a slow first step was actually quicker than I thought when he got going.

Most of that has taken a step back in recent games.

[Stanley]

Originally Posted by Johnny Makarov

Lucic... hard to defend him after this game. Why are you even here?

It's too bad this was the only way to dump Neal cause Rinaldo essentially replaces the need for Lucic

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Well we can agree to disagree. I have been to my share of games and you can see what is happening. Often you see the forwards begin to break once the Flames get possession and the D to D follows. You call it forwards cheating, I see it as a conservative transition game. There is coaching there. The D are deliberately wide and in fact that was something exploited by Edmonton early last game.

Even if it was a failure to execute as you believe, isn’t it up to the coach to recognize this, point it out, and equip them with corrections?

You can lead a horse to water... I'm supposed to believe that four coaches have tried and failed with the same group and it's the coaching that's an issue. Especially when each coach had success off the bat.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Bingo

We all see the game differently I guess ... part of being a fan.

He used to be money on break out passes, could contribute on the cycle, and although he had a slow first step was actually quicker than I thought when he got going.

Most of that has taken a step back in recent games.

It's possible that the early Lucic we saw as simply what he has left in the tank after a summer of rest and the excitement/anxiety of joining a new team. The way he's playing now where he can't complete a simple pass to save his life is exactly the way he looked for the Oilers last season. He's really not that important to the overall success of the team that you would have him in the lineup if he was hurting to the point where he can't even throw a punch or grab a guy. If he's hurt that much I would hope the coach is smart enough to rest him in the press box.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

You can lead a horse to water... I'm supposed to believe that four coaches have tried and failed with the same group and it's the coaching that's an issue. Especially when each coach had success off the bat.

Team starts off operating with a mix of pieces from the old system, adding in bits of the new, and also relying a bit on their own devices, until they learn the new coach’s system, at which point the opposition builds the book and is able to game plan for the final product of the system.

Remember old Brent Sutter that started off with a perpetual playoff team, complained about how they were winning, and fixed their defensive game until they were a perpetual non playoff team?

How much can we even bother to defend Ward here? He wasn’t even Treliving’s choice for the head coaching job.

[genetic_phreek]

I figured I'd be calmed down since Saturday to spew my thoughts with rationale but I'm still angry and might still be clouded with anger but with that being said:

1. We had Mike Smith before and we know first hand he's the best puck playing goaltender so why didn't the following happen in the game?
a) coaches plan a better strategy to enter their zone and
b) players adapt to entering the zone instead of the "dump and chase"

2. After the fights and emotions by Chucky and Talbot, it was essentially a reset for us, we didn't come out with more passion and heart

3. Our team speed is still lacking

4. Our defensive system in our zone is a fire drill

5. Our "goto" guy can no longer be relied upon as shown in these BOAs and even as far back as playoffs (Johnny G)

6. Speaking of Johnny, all world talent but softest player in the entire league.

6. Kylington had a bad game but Hamonic and Hanifin are awful this season

7. Our pp is so predictable and rarely looks dangerous

8. Lucic turned into Patrick Swayze in Ghost, his love for his old teammates never died and you know he's still around, you just couldn't see him

[Frank MetaMusil]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Team starts off operating with a mix of pieces from the old system, adding in bits of the new, and also relying a bit on their own devices, until they learn the new coach’s system, at which point the opposition builds the book and is able to game plan for the final product of the system.

Remember old Brent Sutter that started off with a perpetual playoff team, complained about how they were winning, and fixed their defensive game until they were a perpetual non playoff team?

How much can we even bother to defend Ward here? He wasn’t even Treliving’s choice for the head coaching job.

The bottom line is this doesn't need to be a fault finding exercise. The Flames need different players AND an upgraded coach. The team needs the GM to make the correct moves.

Coaching is the most significant upgrade they can make without having to trade anyone. Treliving has caused this build of the Flames to have questions marks for far longer than it should. Get the elite coach and start trimming your roster from there.

Giving the benefit of the doubt to Gulutzan and Peters is dumb, they've won precisely nothing in the NHL playoffs.