[Rumour] LeBrun: Flames have interest in Toffoli (and other RHS top 6 forwards)

[SeanCharles]

Originally Posted by Toonage

Didn't the Flames try signing him to an extension before the year began, or at least talked extension and it didn't go well?

Think that number was $4M?

I heard something was reported saying he wanted to wait until this offseason to negotiate so he wouldn’t have any distractions throughout the season.

It’s likely Hamonic was an afterthought given the Tkachuk and, to a lesser extent, Mangiapane situation last offseason.

Many have inferred that to mean he wants to sign in Winnipeg to be even closer to home but I’m not sure I buy into that.

If he wanted to be close to home Minnesota is actually geographically the closest to his hometown.

The difference between Calgary and Winnipeg didn’t seem like much when I was looking into it - maybe an extra hr or so in flight time.

[The Yen Man]

I think Hamonic ends up signing in Winnipeg this summer. Seems like a good fit for both sides. Jets are hurting for dmen, and Hamonic gets to be close to the rest of his family. He's one of the rare guys who wants to go to Winnipeg, so I'm willing to bet Jets will get him at a good deal.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

Yet when Hamilton was traded to Carolina, many thought we were giving up way more than we were receiving.

And that’s because people underrated Lindholm and Hanifin because they assumed they were done developing. That was a real bad assumption. It’s an assumption some posters continue to make about players like Bennett and Hanifin who still have room to grow, improve and develop.

Sometimes the fresh start helps. It seemed to help Lindholm. It may be what Bennett and Jankowski need. But they are assets and it would be foolish for Treliving to give them away for too little.

I’d say some fans here definitely underrate the value of some of our players. It could be for the following reasons
1. The poster tends to view things negatively in general
2. The poster puts too much emphasis on current play and not enough emphasis on career play or future upside.

[GioforPM]

Aside from actually being in Winnipeg, Toronto is probably the place where you can get the easiest travel to and from there, FWIW.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

And that’s because people underrated Lindholm and Hanifin because they assumed they were done developing. That was a real bad assumption. It’s an assumption some posters continue to make about players like Bennett and Hanifin who still have room to grow, improve and develop.

Sometimes the fresh start helps. It seemed to help Lindholm. It may be what Bennett and Jankowski need. But they are assets and it would be foolish for Treliving to give them away for too little.

I’d say some fans here definitely underrate the value of some of our players. It could be for the following reasons
1. The poster tends to view things negatively in general
2. The poster puts too much emphasis on current play and not enough emphasis on career play or future upside.

Nobody is being short sighted on Bennett or Jankowski at this point. You're now talking about players who have played several seasons, under different coaching staffs and systems. They haven't shown anything close to offensive growth by now and they more than likely not going to. Can they be useful players, sure. But let's not act like it's a certainty they are going to go somewhere else and start putting up 70 plus points a year.

Lindholm is a completely different case. He had actually consistently put up 40-50 points a season, which is something Bennett and Jankowski certainly have been unable to do. For me, that's at least a baseline figure that shows some degree of offensive potential. If the Flames can land a significant piece by throwing one of these guys into the pot with more significant assets, you jump on it at this point. They're worth more to the franchise that way than alone imo.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I don't think the price is "far" more, but if you have to add it won't be anyone you miss. It'll be prospects or a lower pick. Like I said before, not every team will be interested, not every team can afford to give a useful defenceman, not every team is in the right window for Kapanen. And some are teams that they'd probably rather not trade with, like divisional rivals.

Leafs are desperate for D. We can accommodate that.

I still doubt they are going to sacrifice a player that might be a cheap replacement for one of their more expensive forwards (Nylander) if they are to make a more serious cap move in the off season to address the D situation more permanently. Doing so for a pending UFA with a pretty flat toolkit has the makings of a suicidal move for Dubas.

There's a huge chance Hamonic would walk this offseason and then you've given up a young, highly talented winger for nothing. Can't see this playing out in any iteration unless Hamonic is accompanied by a significant piece.

I'd gladly eat my words on this though.

[SeanCharles]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

I still doubt they are going to sacrifice a player that might be a cheap replacement for one of their more expensive forwards (Nylander) if they are to make a more serious cap move in the off season to address the D situation more permanently. Doing so for a pending UFA with a pretty flat toolkit has the makings of a suicidal move for Dubas.

There's a huge chance Hamonic would walk this offseason and then you've given up a young, highly talented winger for nothing. Can't see this playing out in any iteration unless Hamonic is accompanied by a significant piece.

I'd gladly eat my words on this though.

Well if Francis is right its Brodie that is the piece being talked about with Toronto.

Seeing as he is from that area it probably wouldn't be as difficult to re-sign him.

[D as in David]

Originally Posted by SeanCharles

Many have inferred that to mean he wants to sign in Winnipeg to be even closer to home but I’m not sure I buy into that.

If he wanted to be close to home Minnesota is actually geographically the closest to his hometown.

His birthplace is St. Malo which is less than an hour's drive from Winnipeg. Whereas, Minneapolis is more than 6.5 hours away plus a border crossing.

Unless you mean closer to the Minnesota border? Which would be weird.

[SeanCharles]

Originally Posted by D as in David

His birthplace is St. Malo which is less than an hour's drive from Winnipeg. Whereas, Minneapolis is more than 6.5 hours away plus a border crossing.

Unless you mean closer to the Minnesota border? Which would be weird.

Yea I guess I'm completely wrong on that.

Haha thanks for calling me out on it.

Looking back at the maps I dont know where I came up with that nonsense.

Must have been that Minnesota is the next closest to his hometown?

[RedHawk12]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

And that’s because people underrated Lindholm and Hanifin because they assumed they were done developing. That was a real bad assumption. It’s an assumption some posters continue to make about players like Bennett and Hanifin who still have room to grow, improve and develop.

Sometimes the fresh start helps. It seemed to help Lindholm. It may be what Bennett and Jankowski need. But they are assets and it would be foolish for Treliving to give them away for too little.

I’d say some fans here definitely underrate the value of some of our players. It could be for the following reasons
1. The poster tends to view things negatively in general
2. The poster puts too much emphasis on current play and not enough emphasis on career play or future upside.

Unless Benett improves on his balance and shot, his numbers are not likely going to improve at all. I haven't seen much improvement in Bennett's game from year to year to think that he's going to break out all of a sudden, at least not in Calgary. At this point I think he's more likely to be out if the league in 3-5 years than to break out like Lindholm.

I think Jankowski has always projected to be a bottom 6 guy who can get you 20-30 points, kill penalties and win face offs, nothing more.

I do think Hanifin can improve though. I still think he has top pairing potential. He's having a down year.

[SeanCharles]

Originally Posted by RedHawk12

Unless Benett improves on his balance and shot, his numbers are not likely going to improve at all. I haven't seen much improvement in Bennett's game from year to year to think that he's going to break out all of a sudden, at least not in Calgary. At this point I think he's more likely to be out if the league in 3-5 years than to break out like Lindholm.

I think Jankowski has always projected to be a bottom 6 guy who can get you 20-30 points, kill penalties and win face offs, nothing more.

I do think Hanifin can improve though. I still think he has top pairing potential. He's having a down year.

I think Bennett has the skillset to always have NHL value.

No way he is out of the league unless he chases a bigger paycheck in Europe.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

I still doubt they are going to sacrifice a player that might be a cheap replacement for one of their more expensive forwards (Nylander) if they are to make a more serious cap move in the off season to address the D situation more permanently. Doing so for a pending UFA with a pretty flat toolkit has the makings of a suicidal move for Dubas.

There's a huge chance Hamonic would walk this offseason and then you've given up a young, highly talented winger for nothing. Can't see this playing out in any iteration unless Hamonic is accompanied by a significant piece.

I'd gladly eat my words on this though.

Nylander's cap hit isn't that bad any more. Plus, he was promised that he wouldn't be traded FWIW. I think Hamonic could well be tied to a re-signing condition. And I think they'd have a decent shot. Also I'm not sure Kapanen is as sure-fire a replacement for Nylander as we might think.

In any event, their D situation is dire right now, not in the offseason, because of Reilly and Muzzin both being shelved. They could really use 2 Ds.

Maybe they'd look at Kapanen for Hamonic and Bennett.

[SeanCharles]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Nylander's cap hit isn't that bad any more. Plus, he was promised that he wouldn't be traded FWIW. I think Hamonic could well be tied to a re-signing condition. And I think they'd have a decent shot. Also I'm not sure Kapanen is as sure-fire a replacement for Nylander as we might think.

In any event, their D situation is dire right now, not in the offseason, because of Reilly and Muzzin both being shelved. They could really use 2 Ds.

Maybe they'd look at Kapanen for Hamonic and Bennett.

I think that is an overpay by us. They would have to add IMO.

I know Hamonic is a UFA but it still seems too expensive for Kapanen.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

And that’s because people underrated Lindholm and Hanifin because they assumed they were done developing. That was a real bad assumption. It’s an assumption some posters continue to make about players like Bennett and Hanifin who still have room to grow, improve and develop.

Sometimes the fresh start helps. It seemed to help Lindholm. It may be what Bennett and Jankowski need. But they are assets and it would be foolish for Treliving to give them away for too little.

I’d say some fans here definitely underrate the value of some of our players. It could be for the following reasons
1. The poster tends to view things negatively in general
2. The poster puts too much emphasis on current play and not enough emphasis on career play or future upside.

OK, you have made it abundantly clear that you think I am one of these people.

Current play = 4th line grinder with almost no offense but hasn't hurt the club with past propensity for taking penalties. Playing no special teams because there literally better options all over the roster. Has been most effective playing 12 or less minutes a game. Agree?

Career play = 3rd/4th line grinder with some real jam in his game and very limited offense, but also takes to many very dumb penalties. Played some PP but could not ever figure out how to contribute significantly to it and has never been smart enough to PK. Played 2nd/3rd line minutes most of the time but did not produce numbers to support that continuing.

TOI among forwards who played 50 or more games

15/16 - 6th - (tied with Colborne)...... 36 pts
16/17 - 6th...... 26 pts
17/18 - 7th........26 pts
18/19 - 9th (just behind Frolik).......27 pts
19/20 - 10th (just behind Dube_...on a 14 pt pace


Now extrapolate out of that (future "upside") and tell me how it will be anything different than a 3rd line maybe, 4th line likely winger with almost no offensive abilities but who will bang and crash and do some of the board work. Will not be an option on special teams because he simply is not good enough to do so.

All I see and all he has shown thus far is a 10-12 minute a night guy who doesn't do much of anything....literally dozens and dozens just like him all over the NHL and AHL.

If BT can get anything of value for him, it has to be done. He is a super expensive 4th line winger at this point and this club has enough guys not worth their existing contracts that paying someone 2.5 times what a replacement player could command, is asinine.

So in essence what I believe is that BT cannot be worried that Sam is going to "pop" and start producing if he is dealt as there is NOTHING to indicate that will happen. Could it happen? Sure, anything is possible and there are always exceptions to the rule. This team simply cant be concerned about that however.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Treliving certainly has to be concerned about maximizing his assets and that includes Bennett. You think he’s worthless but he actually isn’t. Go see Friedman’s comments about Bennett this year.

What were your thoughts on Anthony Duclair before this season? How about Domi before the trade to Montreal? Bennett isn’t totally dissimilar to those guys. All broke in with promise, regressed and then broke out with a different opportunity except Bennett who hasn’t been given a new opportunity yet.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Treliving certainly has to be concerned about maximizing his assets and that includes Bennett. You think he’s worthless but he actually isn’t. Go see Friedman’s comments about Bennett this year.

What were your thoughts on Anthony Duclair before this season? How about Domi before the trade to Montreal? Bennett isn’t totally dissimilar to those guys. All broke in with promise, regressed and then broke out with a different opportunity except Bennett who hasn’t been given a new opportunity yet.

The same max Domi who started his career with a 50 point season and the Anthony duckair that had 44 points in year 2?

You think Bennett is comparable to those guys?

Domi had 52 points, then an injury shortened season on Pace for 53 points...then 'regressed' to...45 points? Then had a monster season and now is on Pace for...53 points?

Duclair had a 44 point season then regressed to a 21 point pace and then had been a steady 30+ point pace defender and has now exploded.

This is as dumb as the straw man about Lindholm.

[jayswin]

One thing to point out with Hamonic and the "Winnipeg is the obvious choice", is that there were rumours at some point that he wanted to be traded to Western Canada because of a major illness in his family, but it was later reported that the illness was gone/dealt with etc and that he no longer saw a move to western Canada as a priority.

Not saying that he wouldn't possibly still want to go there just to be near family, but important to note that his desire was based on an illness that is apparently no longer there, where as a lot of fans these days think he wanted Western Canada simply to live near family.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Treliving certainly has to be concerned about maximizing his assets and that includes Bennett. You think he’s worthless but he actually isn’t. Go see Friedman’s comments about Bennett this year.

What were your thoughts on Anthony Duclair before this season? How about Domi before the trade to Montreal? Bennett isn’t totally dissimilar to those guys. All broke in with promise, regressed and then broke out with a different opportunity except Bennett who hasn’t been given a new opportunity yet.

Nope.

But he sure as hell is not worth 2.5 millions dollars a year. He never has been, but that's the kind of money that was required to keep him around so he would become whatever it is you and many others still think he will be.

I was all about the guy myself when he was drafted. I was OK with him until season 3 and the steady stream of penalties and brain cramps that were not being offset by any other contributions on the ice besides the odd scrap and banging guys on the opposition. Once it became apparent he simply didnt have the hockey smarts to excel at the NHL level, it was time to either slot him and pay him as what he is or move on from him and let someone else try and chase that unicorn.

Every single piece of evidence through his now 5th season in the NHL suggests anything but an offensive explosion and as we see the last 3 years....actual regression.

You think the team should keep holding on and "hoping" things change in the face of all evidence to the contrary? Or should they move on and try something else that may not be better but certainly would be hard pressed to be worse?

I just do not understand the unflinching loyalty of a very vocal group on this forum to continually try and spin him into something he isn't, hasn't been, and more than likely never will be.

I don't care if he stays a Flame on the 4th line...but maybe at a million and a half less than his current price. I mean, Curtis Lazar is outscoring him right now in 15 fewer games played...at a cost of 700K.

[powderjunkie]

Gaudreau+Hanifin+Hamonic for Marner+Ceci ($ retained on either UFA as necessary)

Who says no?

Helps balance both teams' top 6 forwards. There are quite a few good potential UFA's the same year as Johnny. If TOR wants to go another direction they free up the money to do it.

CGY extends our window, but puts all LD eggs in Kyli and Vali.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Gaudreau+Hanifin+Hamonic for Marner+Ceci ($ retained on either UFA as necessary)

Who says no?

Helps balance both teams' top 6 forwards. There are quite a few good potential UFA's the same year as Johnny. If TOR wants to go another direction they free up the money to do it.

CGY extends our window, but puts all LD eggs in Kyli and Vali.

Both say no.