[Rumour] LeBrun: Flames have interest in Toffoli (and other RHS top 6 forwards)

[The Original FFIV]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I don't see it as throwing the towel in though.

I'm happy to look at moving any one on the roster, but I'd wait until the summer to do so.

There's a macro time line and a micro. The micro is how you feel about this team this year. I don't like it. With that I'd prefer not to spend futures adding to it, but that's not to say you need to move guys with term in January when the market for those things come in June.

Agree with you Bingo.

Good reference would be 2016-17 Blues. They moved shattenkirk to nyr as they needed to get something. They went on to make playoffs despite trading him.

We are not asset rich enough to let Brodie and Hamonic walk for zip. Keeping them around just to make playoffs and get eliminated in a round or two is short sighted and could set the team back further.

The old one step back (trading #7/#24) two steps forward (obtaining futures/assets) applies here.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Yeah that's me too.

I just don't like this team enough to invest in it as it stands. Honestly part of me wishes Treliving would shock the market and move both Brodie and Hamonic for futures, use some of that to plug the holes, and then look at the core in the summer.

Thank you.

So much I read/hear that they "cant trade these guys when their in a playoff spot".

Why not?

Playoff spot or not, this team is in no way, shape, or form going to do any damage in the playoffs should they get there.

Why not maximize your asset base by dealing any pending UFA when those guys aren't part of a team that has a chance? Its not like you cant revisit signing them in the off season if you so choose.

Trade em both, get decent returns for them ( and thats not hard to do) and you have more bullets in the chamber to go fishing with in the off season. Get another lower tier Dman as part of the return on one of them if needed to fill out the roster.

Core players are another concern all together and really should only be dealt with in June as well.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Something I battle with though ...

How many fan bases feel differently about their teams? The bottom ten all want and expect change, the Blues are still in the cup honeymoon and having a solid season.

Washington has had a great season, the Bruins ... I'd imagine Pens fans are pretty happy given their injuries.

But Tampa up and down. Toronto up and down.

Are there 15-17 teams in the middle that have fans that feel the same way? Important to try and be level headed about this stuff I suppose.

Definitely something you have to take into consideration - no one is happy until all of a sudden they’re champions.

For me the next necessary step is to resolve the freaking coaching issue. For so long with this team it has been a war of “it’s the players fault” meanwhile we’ve hired nothing but the absolute worst head coaches available. Go out and get one of the upper-tier coaches that are available in Gallant or Laviolette and then make the decision that he’s your guy. I know they seemed to try to do that with Peters, which just shows what an absolute cluster #%^* Treliving has been on the coach hiring front. Do it right this time. Remove the concerns and go for as close to a “sure thing” as you can with a coach.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Something I battle with though ...

How many fan bases feel differently about their teams? The bottom ten all want and expect change, the Blues are still in the cup honeymoon and having a solid season.

Washington has had a great season, the Bruins ... I'd imagine Pens fans are pretty happy given their injuries.

But Tampa up and down. Toronto up and down.

Are there 15-17 teams in the middle that have fans that feel the same way? Important to try and be level headed about this stuff I suppose.

Agreed, but at the same time, I think the Flames overall record flatters them, with the GF/GA differential being evidence to that.
Like you - I don't like the current roster.
If there are smart moves to be made mid-season they should be open to them, but with an eye on what they need beyond this season.
And this is going to sound bad, but I continue to think that them falling down the standings for a better 1st round, in what I consider to be a very strong draft at the top end, wouldn't be the worst thing for this franchise.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by New Era

Which is why you make a low cost trade for some offensive help and see if that kick starts things. If it doesn’t then become a seller at the deadline. But something needs to change now, either from inside the organization or from outside. I don’t believe there is any help on the farm, so they have to look elsewhere. They need to get something done. Another lost season is the last thing this team needs. If it gets to that, then I am for cleaning house, and I mean everyone. Scorched earth in the front office, break up the core, fire the concession workers and the greeters. Big changes needed if they can’t right the ship quickly.

Key words there are "low cost trade".
Basically I would look for two types of deals
- Low cost trade for a guy like Toffoli. But if the price is medium to high - pass.
- Hockey trade for a guy with term and that could be part of the solution. Kapanen type deal out of Toronto.

If neither present themselves, sell at the deadline, and re-shape the core during the summer. Build around a new inner core that is Tkachuk, Lindholm, the young D (Hanifin who needs to progress, Valimaki, Andersson, Kylington), and Rittich.

Everyone else should be consider tradeable.
I would be aggressive in trading Johnny.
I would be 50/50 on trading Monny depending on what you can get back. My lean would be to keep him for another year to assess if he's part of the new future or not.

Guys like Gio/Ryan/Backlund could go or stay. I like keeping them for veteran stabilization and leadership, but if you can get a sweet price for any - you should.

Guys like Sam/Jankowski could go if you can get something worth it - or you bring them back with a different core and see if they have another step to give. No sense dumping them for no return.

Trade veterans at the deadline for what you can get: Hamonic, Brodie (unless you can re-sign him), Talbot, Stone (if anything).

That's my blueprint for how I would approach.

[dammage79]

I've been wrestling with the trades of either Hammer or Brodie. On one side I'm sitting here thinking how many RHD can we get signed if we move on from Hammer? One I can think of. Vatanen.

On the other side, since Brodies "event" hes back to his good old self again in a good way and I lean towards wanting to keep him. Then again, Gio has a shelf life and how useful is a Brodie when there is no more Gio?

I do believe if the wheels fall off of this season both are gone. But I'm torn if we are at an either/or impasse.

I think you move on from Hammer and go RHD shopping in the off season. But again, Brodie without Gio eventually is a massive question mark.

[Bingo]

^At very least Treliving has to have conversations with the players (we've heard he has with Hamonic) to assess their demands.

I don't mind extending one now. I don't mind keeping the one you plan to extend if you have a pretty good idea of what they'll want.

I think if either guy takes less to stay I don't mind signing them. I wouldn't do both though as I think Andersson has to move up the roster.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Yeah that's me too.

I just don't like this team enough to invest in it as it stands. Honestly part of me wishes Treliving would shock the market and move both Brodie and Hamonic for futures, use some of that to plug the holes, and then look at the core in the summer.

“Part of you” - honestly that’s almost all of me.

To walk into the playoffs with the same roster as last year is almost inexcusable IMO. Does even the most ardent Flame believer think that will end well? Or if you miss the playoffs with the same roster?

I support the principle that if you’re not moving forward you’re moving backwards. If you’re not adding to the current club or adding to your prospect base you have wasted a season. And I don’t buy the excuse that no moves are better than bad moves. No one who is successful at the highest level in any endeavor considers avoiding failure a success.

The way this club played in the first 60 games of last season shows there is talent. Maybe you add to that talent, or maybe you leverage the value of that talent to move the club forward. Hasn’t that been apparent for a while now?

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by dammage79

Then again, Gio has a shelf life and how useful is a Brodie when there is no more Gio?

Guys like Valimaki, Kylington, and Hanifin still need a RD to play with.

Brodue is super useful as long as we're not pidgeonholing him to the left side.

[Joborule]

Originally Posted by madmike

This is my thought too. The Flames have some nice pieces and decent depth. But without a true star or two they’re not going to make much noise. At the moment they’re in that dreaded middle ground - not good enough to win a Cup and not bad enough to get immediate impact blue chip draft picks. Unfortunately true number one centres are almost never available so I don’t know what they can do. Adding one more decent top 6 player isn’t going to move the needle enough in my opinion.

The lack of a true #1 C falls on the Bennett pick.

Him not panning out really screwed up this rebuild attempt. It's still salvageable with some moves, but the current roster may be in cup contending position if Bennett lived up to his potential.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Joborule

The lack of a true #1 C falls on the Bennett pick.

Him not panning out really screwed up this rebuild attempt. It's still salvageable with some moves, but the current roster may be in cup contending position if Bennett lived up to his potential.

Gah, this drives me mad reading this sentiment over and over.

It falls on the GENERAL MANAGER. The same guy who didn't improve the team at all over an offseason after the team had the tar kicked out of them in the first round.

It's not sam bennett's job to build and run the 23 man roster. It's his job to go out there and play hockey.

[Joborule]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Gah, this drives me mad reading this sentiment over and over.

It falls on the GENERAL MANAGER. The same guy who didn't improve the team at all over an offseason after the team had the tar kicked out of them in the first round.

It's not sam bennett's job to build and run the 23 man roster. It's his job to go out there and play hockey.

Yes, Treliving hasn't made a good enough roster overall, and ultimately this falls on him. But you can't discount the fact that Bennett was the most promising prospect the Flames drafted in a very, very long time, and when he was selected, it was expected he would be a key piece in the team being competitive by now. Having two offensively skilled centremen that can drive their lines is the prototype in building a cup contending team. Monahan and Bennett were suppose to be those two. If Bennett lived up to his potential, we're likely having a lot more different discussion then we are today.

Sam not panning out as intending has left a major void that is harming the team. It's not Sam's job to build the team, but it was his job to be as great as he was anticipated to be, and he failed in doing that. Him busting out changed the rebuild. (As well missing out on millions in possible career earnings for him personally)

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Joborule

Yes, Treliving hasn't made a good enough roster overall, and ultimately this falls on him. But you can't discount the fact that Bennett was the most promising prospect the Flames drafted in a very, very long time, and when he was selected, it was expected he would be a key piece in the team being competitive by now. Having two offensively skilled centremen that can drive their lines is the prototype in building a cup contending team. Monahan and Bennett were suppose to be those two. If Bennett lived up to his potential, we're likely having a lot more different discussion then we are today.

Sam not panning out as intending has left a major void that is harming the team. It's not Sam's job to build the team, but it was his job to be as great as he was anticipated to be, and he failed in doing that. Him busting out changed the rebuild. (As well missing out on millions in possible career earnings for him personally)

I still view development very strongly as a two way road, and Treliving screwed up the Flames half just as bad as Bennett has screwed up his half.

Treliving continuously tried to build depth so that players could play up and down the lineup and generate - except he screwed it up every damn time he tried - saddling Bennett with the likes of Chiasson, Versteeg, Brouwer, Neal, Jagr...if we had good depth, Bennett would have gotten to play with better players and perhaps he could been mentored by them, which is pretty common for NHL teams to do with young players. He also absolutely blew it with Gulutzan and Peters as head coaches. I wish Bennett could have spent time in the AHL with Huska instead of being fed to the incompetency of the organization at the NHL level.

Sometimes as well you just have bad timing from a drafting perspective. For us to bottom out that year compared to other years is a significant bummer - one year later, at 4th overall we would have had Mitch Marner. The draft does have a timing/luck component to it.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Gah, this drives me mad reading this sentiment over and over.

It falls on the GENERAL MANAGER. The same guy who didn't improve the team at all over an offseason after the team had the tar kicked out of them in the first round.

It's not sam bennett's job to build and run the 23 man roster. It's his job to go out there and play hockey.

Perhaps, but it is Sam's job to go out an play good hockey, and for that he fails miserably.

[calgaryred]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

Perhaps, but it is Sam's job to go out an play good hockey, and for that he fails miserably.

I agree for a 4th overall pick he should be able to put up numbers regardless who is on his line. He doesn't so he will never be who we hoped he would. He is tradable and I hope he is gone for a decent pick up for next season.

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[kyuss275]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Thank you.

So much I read/hear that they "cant trade these guys when their in a playoff spot".

Why not?

Playoff spot or not, this team is in no way, shape, or form going to do any damage in the playoffs should they get there.

Why not maximize your asset base by dealing any pending UFA when those guys aren't part of a team that has a chance? Its not like you cant revisit signing them in the off season if you so choose.

Trade em both, get decent returns for them ( and thats not hard to do) and you have more bullets in the chamber to go fishing with in the off season. Get another lower tier Dman as part of the return on one of them if needed to fill out the roster.

Core players are another concern all together and really should only be dealt with in June as well.

I get trading them if they are not in a playoff spot but you can't trade both of them for futures if they are in a playoff spot. Its a horrible message to the young guys. If anything you'll see players watning out of Calgary, if they go that route. This young group needs playoff experience.

I'm in the position that you sell if your out, you stand pat as a bubble team, and you add if you pretty sure your going to make it. Or if its a hockey trade for a top 6 forward with term that will help you in the future also.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

A top 5 forward pick should at the very least be able to go out and put up around 20 goals and 40+ points every year. Anything less than that is a massive failure.

Go back and look at previous drafts. You won't find many top 5 forward selections who have put up numbers as pitiful as Bennett's. It's a huge reason why Calgary is where they are currently...middling.

[Roof-Daddy]

It's true.

If Bennett is a play driving 80 point #1C this team is in a lot better shape right now.

[Tyler]

But guys, he got 4pts in the playoffs a couple years ago! How can we ignore his massive playoff contributions!!! Just wait until April!!

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Gah, this drives me mad reading this sentiment over and over.

It falls on the GENERAL MANAGER. The same guy who didn't improve the team at all over an offseason after the team had the tar kicked out of them in the first round.

It's not sam bennett's job to build and run the 23 man roster. It's his job to go out there and play hockey.

Gah, so what should have Treliving done?