Craig Button: Top 50 NHL affiliated prospects

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Johnny Makarov

So it is better to go off and the board and be completely wrong? haha Did Button have Jankowski in his top 10 that year?

That's not the point. Homogeneity in rankings seems really really strange when you consider each player has specific strengths and weaknesses, and that people should have different takes on what skills are most important to a prospect, then weight how they fit in the system they are in. There should be disparity and variety in rankings. The fact that there isn't likely means that the people doing the rankings haven't sen the players and are only going off what scouting reports have told them.

[Wastedyouth]

Not directly list related,

But discounting what Phillips and Gawdin are doing at their ages in the AHL is folly.

They are nearly/are NHL ready.

[Samonadreau]

Originally Posted by Mass_nerder

It's Valimaki no longer considered a prospect?
I get that he's not going to be in the top 50, but I'm surprised that he's not in our top 5.

If you look at his top 50 list none are in the NHL, safe to say he considers Valimaki an NHLer at this point and not prospect.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Wastedyouth

Not directly list related,

But discounting what Phillips and Gawdin are doing at their ages in the AHL is folly.

They are nearly/are NHL ready.

I don't disagree with what you're saying, but not taking into consideration the jump from the AHL to the NHL is also folly. Not considering the limitations on the two players (size, speed, physicality) is a common mistake when suggesting players are ready. They may nearly be NHL ready point wise, but not on a team that should be challenging for a playoff spot or being a contender. AHL points don't amount to a helluva lot if you don't have the skating ability or physicality to play at the NHL level. Both may get a cup of coffee late in the year, but I suspect they don't get any serious consideration until next training camp at the very earliest. The AHL playoff run will do them good and also show their ability to deal with the best teams and a more physical brand of hockey.

[Wastedyouth]

Originally Posted by New Era

I don't disagree with what you're saying, but not taking into consideration the jump from the AHL to the NHL is also folly. Not considering the limitations on the two players (size, speed, physicality) is a common mistake when suggesting players are ready. They may nearly be NHL ready point wise, but not on a team that should be challenging for a playoff spot or being a contender. AHL points don't amount to a helluva lot if you don't have the skating ability or physicality to play at the NHL level. Both may get a cup of coffee late in the year, but I suspect they don't get any serious consideration until next training camp at the very earliest. The AHL playoff run will do them good and also show their ability to deal with the best teams and a more physical brand of hockey.

Gawdin isn't a small guy. And Phillips isn't soft.

In my opinion.

Both of them are excelling as well as Mangiapane and Dube were in the AHL, if not better.

And their probabilities this year are quite high, like Mangiapane and Dube.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Wastedyouth

Gawdin isn't a small guy.

The knock on Gawdin is his skating and keeping up to the speed of the game. He needs to be exceptional in his other gifts to make up for this weaknesses in others.

And Phillips isn't soft.

In my opinion.

That video of Phillips laying a big hit on an unsuspecting player has done more damage than benefit to him IMO. Now people think he plays with this "edge" which isn't his game. There is a big difference between the AHL and NHL in how playing style translates. Phillips size and lack of physicality is going to hurt. He's going to get rag-dolled in the corners and have to fight through much bigger, faster, and stringer players. The NHL is just a different game, and the last time we saw him (camp) he was not prepared for the NHL.

Both of them are excelling as well as Mangiapane and Dube were in the AHL, if not better.

How so? Both Mangipagne and Dube were way better prospects and complete players in the AHL. Points only tell half the story about a player. And make no mistake, this year's Heat are just a way better team than last year's Heat.

And their probabilities this year are quite high, like Mangiapane and Dube.

I disagree. I don't think they get anything more than a cup of coffee this season, at best, as they don't fit in the current make up of the team. I doubt they get a serious look until next training camp, and only if certain players shake out of the lineup. Who comes out if the lineup in favor of either Phillips or Gawdin?

[HighLifeMan]

Button has always been and continues to be all over the map with his rankings in terms of consistency and has incredible recency bias especially in relation to international events.

For example he had Pelletier and Robertson within 4 picks of one another in his final draft rankings just six months ago, and now all of the sudden Robertson is the 17th rated prospect in the NHL while Pelletier fails to crack the top 50 list despite being the more productive player to date this season. The difference? Robertson played in the WJC's and Pelletier didn't due to injury. Another example would be Button having Kravstov as his top NHL prospect just a year ago and this year has him at 37. If he can't value and stick by his own evaluations, why should we? Not that these "rankings" mean anything.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Johnny Makarov

I don't read him but i just read that. Hindsight but there are probably 12 guys that should have been picked before his "top 3".

Let the hate flow through you I guess but I struggle to see more than 2 or 3 players below the top three that are better than Domi (72 points last year and on pace for 62 this year) and Reinhart (65 points last year and on pace for 65 this year).

Bennett sucks, he got that one wrong but the other two would be top 5 players on the list today.

[madmike]

The Flames have 10 guys on their NHL roster who are 25 or under (Valimaki would be 11). Most of their top prospects are already in the NHL. If the cupboard is bare now it’s largely because the Flames have drafted well and already emptied it to build the NHL roster.

[GioforPM]

Question - did Rasmus Andersson ever crack his top 50?

[Wastedyouth]

Originally Posted by New Era

The knock on Gawdin is his skating and keeping up to the speed of the game. He needs to be exceptional in his other gifts to make up for this weaknesses in others.



That video of Phillips laying a big hit on an unsuspecting player has done more damage than benefit to him IMO. Now people think he plays with this "edge" which isn't his game. There is a big difference between the AHL and NHL in how playing style translates. Phillips size and lack of physicality is going to hurt. He's going to get rag-dolled in the corners and have to fight through much bigger, faster, and stringer players. The NHL is just a different game, and the last time we saw him (camp) he was not prepared for the NHL.



How so? Both Mangipagne and Dube were way better prospects and complete players in the AHL. Points only tell half the story about a player. And make no mistake, this year's Heat are just a way better team than last year's Heat.



I disagree. I don't think they get anything more than a cup of coffee this season, at best, as they don't fit in the current make up of the team. I doubt they get a serious look until next training camp, and only if certain players shake out of the lineup. Who comes out if the lineup in favor of either Phillips or Gawdin?

That hit has nothing to do with my opinion of Phillips.

And Gawdin's skating hasn't held him back in the AHL.

They are 22. What they are doing at 22 in the AHL is fantastic. And their comparables are quite good. Which is why we shouldnt sell them short.

The Heat are better, because their young guys are playing better and a couple veterans/AAAA players are helping as well.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Johnny Makarov

So it is better to go off and the board and be completely wrong? haha Did Button have Jankowski in his top 10 that year?

There is no board.

There is no consensus.

Fans would be shocked at how different each team's draft list is.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Johnny Makarov

Too bad he is a bad judge of hockey sense. which makes his lists less meaningful. and you kind of answered your own question. If the plethora of experts have roughly the same list and then Button has his totally different what does that tell you?

That most of the experts actually don't form their own opinion and just repeat what they here elsewhere?

[Johnny Makarov]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

That most of the experts actually don't form their own opinion and just repeat what they here elsewhere?

So i don't really watch him on TSN or read any of columns due to his ineptitude with us here before. When he comes on I just fast forward the PVR. However somehow i did listen to his take when Ward scrambled the lines and put Johnny with Lucic. His assessment of Lucic was pathetic. Like he didn't even watch a Flames game all year.

So is Button actually correct most times with his 'different' picks? Is his record better than the rest of the experts?

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Johnny Makarov

So i don't really watch him on TSN or read any of columns due to his ineptitude with us here before. When he comes on I just fast forward the PVR. However somehow i did listen to his take when Ward scrambled the lines and put Johnny with Lucic. His assessment of Lucic was pathetic. Like he didn't even watch a Flames game all year.

So is Button actually correct most times with his 'different' picks? Is his record better than the rest of the experts?

No. His own judgements on talent has been laughable. Sometimes he comes close with who the Flames may be looking at but his brother is head scout here so he gets fed tidbits there.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Johnny Makarov

So i don't really watch him on TSN or read any of columns due to his ineptitude with us here before. When he comes on I just fast forward the PVR. However somehow i did listen to his take when Ward scrambled the lines and put Johnny with Lucic. His assessment of Lucic was pathetic. Like he didn't even watch a Flames game all year.

So is Button actually correct most times with his 'different' picks? Is his record better than the rest of the experts?

I don't think Button's scouting abilities are all that exceptional, but a very good reason to pay attention to his lists is because his opinions pretty frequently reflect precisely what Flames Director of Scouting Tod Button is thinking and doing.

[Johnny Makarov]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I don't think Button's scouting abilities are all that exceptional, but a very good reason to pay attention to his lists is because his opinions pretty frequently reflect precisely what Flames Director of Scouting Tod Button is thinking and doing.

Wait... so Craig is spilling some of the Flames inside info for the rest of the NHL to see?? Holy crap.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Johnny Makarov

Wait... so Craig is spilling some of the Flames inside info for the rest of the NHL to see?? Holy crap.

Or maybe he and his brother—who both undoubtedly learned by watching their father—just tend to see players the same way.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Johnny Makarov

So i don't really watch him on TSN or read any of columns due to his ineptitude with us here before. When he comes on I just fast forward the PVR. However somehow i did listen to his take when Ward scrambled the lines and put Johnny with Lucic. His assessment of Lucic was pathetic. Like he didn't even watch a Flames game all year.

So is Button actually correct most times with his 'different' picks? Is his record better than the rest of the experts?

So there are generally two different types of experts in regards to prospects and the draft.

1. Insiders who get their information from NHL contacts. This would be like Bob Mackenzie. This is the best information hands down because Mackenzie is polling 10 different scouts and combining their data. This is why Mackenzie also has the most accurate draft predictions. Does Bob Mackenzie scout? No. Is Bob Mackenzie putting his own spin on the list? No. He's simply averaging lists he takes from actual NHL scouts

2. People who are actually out there doing some scouting themselves. Pronman and Button are examples of this. Redline Report, ISS, etc. Button used to be paid by NHL teams to scout and manage. I'll take his experience and his eye for talent all day long over a guy like Pronman. But Button isn't any better than sources like Redline report, Future Considerations, etc IMO.

Then there are people like Cosentino who are a bit of a blend of the two. They have great scouting contacts but they're also out there watching a lot of junior for themselves. He's a good source too.

You just gotta realize the pros and cons of each source. Some people have clearly gone overboard in their hatred of all things Button. His lists have some merit but they are clearly biased and lacking in certain ways. As some have mentioned his list is often very tournament biased (WJC biased) as he obviously isn't out there scouting the CHL every day. His lists aren't the gospel. They aren't completely worthless. Somewhere in between. Just take it with a grain of salt, realize he's probably overrating the WJC takeaways. Just like you've gotta take Pronman's lists with a grain of salt and realize he's wowed by the smaller, flashy guys and underrates the importance of winning physical battles (some posters here are guilty of the same thinking). Button is another source of information and if you're looking for that information I wouldn't completely ignore him.

[Hanna Sniper]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I don't think Button's scouting abilities are all that exceptional, but a very good reason to pay attention to his lists is because his opinions pretty frequently reflect precisely what Flames Director of Scouting Tod Button is thinking and doing.

Ok, sure it does.

LOL I'm afraid things don't work that way, thankfully