NDP calls for ban on ATM fees

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Cowperson

How is that double dipping?

Sorry, I wasn't intending to use the word in the literal sense. It was more meant to explain that one is actually facing two different service charges for the same transaction.

[Slava]

Well to be fair in this thread, Manulife also has a no fee account with higher interest than the others here (I think, but don't hang me if its not!). I don't think that any bank anywhere lets you use another machine and not pay for that "privledge" though.

[edn88]

Jack Layton makes me SOOOOOOOO mad. I wish he would pack up his socialist bags and move to Venezuala.

I agree with pretty much every one else on this board that states that it is not the governments role to stop the banks from charging this kind of fee. In my economics course, one of the things that they teach, is that people will alter their behaviour based on the fees they pay. So if it is 'free' then the bank is going to bare the brunt of the associated costs. On top of that, if people are so freakin lazy that they cannot go to their own bank (hey that is me from time to time) then they are making a value judgement on that. I am of the no-cash use my credit card - and use it wisely variety.

It amazes me how poorly people manage their finances - and not just the low income folks (sometimes they are the best cause they have to be).

Anyway, Jack, to quote the Crue, don't go away mad, just go away.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by edn88

Jack Layton makes me SOOOOOOOO mad. I wish he would pack up his socialist bags and move to Venezuala.

I agree with pretty much every one else on this board that states that it is not the governments role to stop the banks from charging this kind of fee. In my economics course, one of the things that they teach, is that people will alter their behaviour based on the fees they pay. So if it is 'free' then the bank is going to bare the brunt of the associated costs. On top of that, if people are so freakin lazy that they cannot go to their own bank (hey that is me from time to time) then they are making a value judgement on that. I am of the no-cash use my credit card - and use it wisely variety.

It amazes me how poorly people manage their finances - and not just the low income folks (sometimes they are the best cause they have to be).

Anyway, Jack, to quote the Crue, don't go away mad, just go away.

This is actually the exact opposite train of thought in the book Freakonomics...they studied daycare late fees and found that once they were implemented the incidence of lateness rose.

Let's face it, whether the government shouold be involved or not, the fees are too high.

[FireFly]

I don't mind paying the other bank for using their machine, it's their money. I mind paying my bank for using another bank's machines because they don't have enough to go around. That ****es me off. Sure, charge me because the closest bank it a bus ride away whereas the other company's machine is across the street. *******s.

Problem is I'm too lazy to open a new account with another bank. Perhaps that's what I should do on my next day off, as well as call my CC companies and tell them to lower my interest rate. Good plan.

[edn88]

Originally Posted by Slava

This is actually the exact opposite train of thought in the book Freakonomics...they studied daycare late fees and found that once they were implemented the incidence of lateness rose.

Let's face it, whether the government shouold be involved or not, the fees are too high.

A little different I think - what they proved in Freakonomics was the late fee let people feel that they were off the hook and were 'buying' something.

For rational people, the ATM fees are a cost to be avoided and their behavior should reflect that. An absence of late fees will cause people to use more of the ATMs that are not from their bank.

We could conduct a study, but I am busy with my day job.

[Slava]

edn88, you may be right. As usual I'm on my high horse here...I go to which ever machine is closest and eat the fee. I just don't like it!

[Antithesis]

I couldn't disagree more with the NDP here; there is nothing that says you must use other banks' ATM machines than your own. What irritates me is when you get skewered on things like Automobile Insurance which is not optional (yes, I know, you could not have a car) ... like when these goofy insurance companies report record profits (in the BILLIONS of dollars collectively) and the government lets them raise our rates because they haven't earned enough? What?

[Hakan]

This board never ceases to amaze me.

Now we're all sticking up for the bank's right to essentially gouge you. Does anyone know what the marginal cost is for a non-client to withdraw $20 bucks from an ATM?

I'll tell you right now, it's nowhere close to $1.50.

[Sylvanfan]

Originally Posted by Hakan

This board never ceases to amaze me.

Now we're all sticking up for the bank's right to essentially gouge you. Does anyone know what the marginal cost is for a non-client to withdraw $20 bucks from an ATM?

I'll tell you right now, it's nowhere close to $1.50.

Well don't go to that bank machine. Back in 1988 if you wanted money for the weekend you went and stood in line at 5:00 on Friday afternoon for 45 minutes. Today you can go at whatever hour of the day you want and get money and get it for no fee if you go to the right bank. If people can't figure out what the right bank to go to is, it's their problem.

[Hakan]

The fees for withdrawing money from a teller are even higher than the ATM fee.

The banks are charging you from withdrawing you money. The marginal cost is exactly the same for your home bank as to a competing bank because they all use the same network and the costs of holding the extra cash are negligible because they would do it anyway.

Of course we are also ignoring that the Bank is already making vast amounts of money on your money anyway. Where they take your money and invest it themselves taking all the interest except for a measley .25% that they pay out at months end to you.

Why exactly is being gouged the person's problem?

[Antithesis]

Because they have a choice ...?

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by edn88

Jack Layton makes me SOOOOOOOO mad. I wish he would pack up his socialist bags and move to Venezuala.

No kidding. What's next?
Limitations on monopolys, child labour laws, minimum wages, workplace safety standards?
I'm sick of hippies telling big businesses to treat people fairly. We have the right to be ripped off and taken advantage of. You can't take that away from us Layton!!!!

[Devils'Advocate]

What is humourous here is people saying that, left to its own devices, the free market will correct itself. But this isn't a free market. The Canadian Bank Act doesn't allow foreign competition. What we have is a handful of large banks, all making incredible profits, all happy to have this free ride gouging Canadians. What makes fees lower in the U.S. is that there is far more competition. I worked in Boston for a few months and there were dozens of banks. Little Mom&Pop *BANKS*. How did these little guys make it? By having low service charges. How do big banks react? They lower their service charges. Lots of competition = lower prices. We don't have that here due to the protection the government gives our domestic banks.

Saying "let the free market decide" when there is no "free market" is foolhardy. I say let the banks decide. They can choose to let the ABM fees go, or we change the bank act to allow foreign competition. We'd see those ABM fees disappear lickity-split.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Snakeeye

There is a fee for using Interac as well. The difference is that most stores and resteraunts absorb it and pass it onto the customers as part of the price.

That trend is going in the opposite direction. Many resturants now pass on the service when one uses a debit card to pay for ones meal. It shows up on the machine just before you punch in your password. Problem is they don't tell until you this ahead of time. When it first happened I asked for the manager and told him it was real petty to ding customers this way. Hide it in the the menu prices I added. We argued and he eventually agreed to take the service fee off the bill.

[Ha Ha Stupid Oilers]

Originally Posted by Hakan

The fees for withdrawing money from a teller are even higher than the ATM fee.

The banks are charging you from withdrawing you money. The marginal cost is exactly the same for your home bank as to a competing bank because they all use the same network and the costs of holding the extra cash are negligible because they would do it anyway.

Of course we are also ignoring that the Bank is already making vast amounts of money on your money anyway. Where they take your money and invest it themselves taking all the interest except for a measley .25% that they pay out at months end to you.

Why exactly is being gouged the person's problem?

I'd like to know how you figure the marginal costs is nowhere near $1.50

while you're on the topic, since you seem to think you know what the expenses are, tell me how much it costs for an ATM machine, maintenance, security guards to fill up the machines with cash and the transportation of it, monitoring and security measures used within the network.

If you could tell me what the breakdown of the expenses of an ATM machine, I wont think you're full of ****

[Hakan]

The banking fees that you pay to your home bank more than cover any operational costs on maintaining a banking machine. They wouldn't offer them otherwise. But thanks for pointing out that you really do have shyte for brains because I'll tell you that the marginal cost of offering atm access to non-bank users customers is essentially zero. (there may be some 'costs' from the bank holding extra cash in the abm instead of having that cash invested but as I outlined earlier, that isn't even the banks cash necessarily, it's YOURS)

Here's a suggestion: Have a clue what you're talking about before you make assinine accusations.

[Ha Ha Stupid Oilers]

Originally Posted by Hakan

The banking fees that you pay to your home bank more than cover any operational costs on maintaining a banking machine. They wouldn't offer them otherwise. But thanks for pointing out that you really do have shyte for brains because I'll tell you that the marginal cost of offering atm access to non-bank users customers is essentially zero. (there may be some 'costs' from the bank holding extra cash in the abm instead of having that cash invested but as I outlined earlier, that isn't even the banks cash necessarily, it's YOURS)

Here's a suggestion: Have a clue what you're talking about before you make assinine accusations.

In your later post, you claim its the cost for the home bank.

Originally Posted by Hakan

This board never ceases to amaze me.

Now we're all sticking up for the bank's right to essentially gouge you. Does anyone know what the marginal cost is for a non-client to withdraw $20 bucks from an ATM?

I'll tell you right now, it's nowhere close to $1.50.

In this post, you mention nothing about the cost to the home bank.
Understand what you've typed out because now you still sound like you're full of **** in knowing how much it costs the banks.

[Hakan]

What?

What the hell do you think non-client means?

I feel like I'm explaining something to George Foreman here.

The monthly fees that you and everyone else pay to their bank for the privilege of you giving them your cash for them to go invest elsewhere is justififed to cover the security and whatever other expenses incurred to maintain their ATM machines.

Therefore all of the fixed and significant variable costs are already covered and then some!

Meaning that the marginal cost of other people using that ATM is essentially zero. Can I get a holler here?

Otherwise, I'm done.

[Dion]

A friend of mine used to work for a bank and this was her explanation for ATM fees:

You withdraw money from that bank machine. Someone has to bring in
the money for the machines. That comes via the Bank Of Canada and is
delivered via armoured car.

Someone has to fill it several times a day. Someone has to remove all
of the record cards. Someone has to verify the reports. Someone has
to remove the deposit envelopes and double check the entries. Someone
has to watch for fraud and kiting.

What goes on behind the scenes is labour. Someone has to pay for it.