[Trade] Elias Lindholm + Noah Hanifin to Flames for D. Hamilton, Micheal Ferland, & Adam Fox

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by jonkaupp

Also, I see Jiri posted something that has a poll where Hamilton came in second... or as some might say... a front runner...

This is all you needed to do. I have no idea why you were so obtuse and avoided it.

[jonkaupp]

Originally Posted by the2bears

This is all you needed to do. I have no idea why you were so obtuse and avoided it.

The fact that you think it was necessary to post a poll to prove something that is so obvious and apparent is what was obtuse

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by jonkaupp

Again, all you can is refer to semantics over how something was described because you have no argument. Garbage is all that is.

My argument is that Hamilton is not considered to be a “front runner” by the hockey experts who you are pretending to cite. You’d have thought you could come up with at least one article when asked BTW. “Front runner” versus “contender” isn’t semantics at all. It was your point to prove that Carolina was a clear winner of the trade.

My argument is that Calgary has two core players from the trade. Carolina has one, plus a couple draft picks that have not yet had any impact on the team. My argument is that 22 year old Hamilton has a lot of upside yet, and could well wind up better than the one dimensional Hamilton. My argument is that Lindholm is a top line C/RW, and would up part of one of the best lines in hockey last year. In many ways he enabled the success of that line. My argument is that the trade favours Calgary. The only way you can argue otherwise is to say Hamilton is an elite player, and I don’t think he is. I don’t think him having a bunch of points and on a list for Norris consideration at the 1/3 mark means he is one either.

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by jonkaupp

The fact that you think it was necessary to post a poll to prove something that is so obvious and apparent is what was obtuse

The thing that's obvious and apparent is that if you make a claim, provide some evidence for it.

[jonkaupp]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

My argument is that Hamilton is not considered to be a “front runner” by the hockey experts who you are pretending to cite. You’d have thought you could come up with at least one article when asked BTW. “Front runner” versus “contender” isn’t semantics at all. It was your point to prove that Carolina was a clear winner of the trade.

My argument is that Calgary has two core players from the trade. Carolina has one, plus a couple draft picks that have not yet had any impact on the team. My argument is that 22 year old Hamilton has a lot of upside yet, and could well wind up better than the one dimensional Hamilton. My argument is that Lindholm is a top line C/RW, and would up part of one of the best lines in hockey last year. In many ways he enabled the success of that line. My argument is that the trade favours Calgary. The only way you can argue otherwise is to say Hamilton is an elite player, and I don’t think he is. I don’t think him having a bunch of points and on a list for Norris consideration at the 1/3 mark means he is one either.

Ignoring first paragraph because major eye roll.


Totally fine with those arguments, perhaps you could have gone with that first rather than ‘all defencemen contend for the Norris’

The crux of it is if you like Hanifin and don’t think Hamilton is an elite no 1 D, then you probably love the trade. If you are worried about Hanifin being tapped out (because right now he isn’t very good) and believe Hamilton is an elite no 1 defence men then you probably don’t love the trade but take solace in the fact that you got Lindholm on a beauty contract

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by jonkaupp

The fact that you think it was necessary to post a poll to prove something that is so obvious and apparent is what was obtuse

But you have to see how calling out others for using opinions as facts, and then following up with just your opinions, is going to grind some gears, right?

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by jonkaupp

Ignoring first paragraph because major eye roll.


Totally fine with those arguments, perhaps you could have gone with that first rather than ‘all defencemen contend for the Norris’

The crux of it is if you like Hanifin and don’t think Hamilton is an elite no 1 D, then you probably love the trade. If you are worried about Hanifin being tapped out (because right now he isn’t very good) and believe Hamilton is an elite no 1 defence men then you probably don’t love the trade but take solace in the fact that you got Lindholm on a beauty contract

You have to ignore the first paragraph because you don’t want to own the statement you made. Hamilton just isn’t a front runner. And when you were challenged on that statement all you did was cite “all hockey writers”.

You also still don’t get the point i was making, which was saying “contender” isn’t saying a whole lot. I can name 6 guys who are “contenders’ even in the sense that they could be a top vote getter (not to mention that it’s foolish to say that on Dec. 8 anyway).

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by jonkaupp

Ignoring first paragraph because major eye roll.


Totally fine with those arguments, perhaps you could have gone with that first rather than ‘all defencemen contend for the Norris’

The crux of it is if you like Hanifin and don’t think Hamilton is an elite no 1 D, then you probably love the trade. If you are worried about Hanifin being tapped out (because right now he isn’t very good) and believe Hamilton is an elite no 1 defence men then you probably don’t love the trade but take solace in the fact that you got Lindholm on a beauty contract

I consider Hamilton an elite offensive defenceman. Carolina will be enjoying this for a while once they pony up a new contract. They have quite a few talented forwards in their group.

Lindholm has been one of our best forwards all year. Once the cap of Dougie comes in next season I’d almost be happy with where we are at right here.

Then there is Hanifin who I believe you are really understating. He is, at his absolute worst, a serviceable top 4 NHL dman. This season he is 3rd in blocks, and 3rd in hits (leading flames D) on the team. 2nd in Time on Ice (both averaged and actual). His +\- is low, there is no debating that. But the team has also struggled and that is a stat that can fluctuate wildly. He has physical ability in size and speed, and hopefully progresses.

Overall I see the Flames improving a position of weakness by utilizing depth at a strength. Dougie will be in the league still when we would likely use him, but we had a glaring need for a forward and ended up with a great 2 way forward at that. That’s why I think both teams won.

[jonkaupp]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

You have to ignore the first paragraph because you don’t want to own the statement you made. Hamilton just isn’t a front runner. And when you were challenged on that statement all you did was cite “all hockey writers”.

You also still don’t get the point i was making, which was saying “contender” isn’t saying a whole lot. I can name 6 guys who are “contenders’ even in the sense that they could be a top vote getter (not to mention that it’s foolish to say that on Dec. 8 anyway).

No I don’t want to because the argument is on a next level of stupid and waste of damn time. He is a front runner. Arguing that front runner can only be one guy is stupid and I don’t have time for it. Totally ridiculous. You and I both know what I was getting at but for some reason you are more interested in changing the argument. It’s very very dumb. You also said there are no finalists, when its well known that the top 3 vote getters are considered the finalists every single year but since it doesn’t fit whatever ridiculous narrow definition of what a finalist is then its a misnomer. You have succeeded in deflecting, I will give you that. The actual argument was whether Dougie being a potential Norris winner is a viable reason to call him an elite player but yet, here we are arguing about semantics. Are you a lawyer maybe?

Dougie Hamilton is one of the front runners for the Norris trophy as of right now, and that is because he is an elite no 1 defence men as far as I am concerned. That is why I don’t view the trade as a big win.

[jonkaupp]

Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers

I consider Hamilton an elite offensive defenceman. Carolina will be enjoying this for a while once they pony up a new contract. They have quite a few talented forwards in their group.

Lindholm has been one of our best forwards all year. Once the cap of Dougie comes in next season I’d almost be happy with where we are at right here.

Then there is Hanifin who I believe you are really understating. He is, at his absolute worst, a serviceable top 4 NHL dman. This season he is 3rd in blocks, and 3rd in hits (leading flames D) on the team. 2nd in Time on Ice (both averaged and actual). His +\- is low, there is no debating that. But the team has also struggled and that is a stat that can fluctuate wildly. He has physical ability in size and speed, and hopefully progresses.

Overall I see the Flames improving a position of weakness by utilizing depth at a strength. Dougie will be in the league still when we would likely use him, but we had a glaring need for a forward and ended up with a great 2 way forward at that. That’s why I think both teams won.

I’m fine with you liking Hanifin, he does have the tools. But I don’t really love your evidence. Being third in blocked shots isn’t actually a good thing... there’s a saying that blocking shots is like killing rats, its good sure but obviously the bigger problem is why are there rats in the first place. Kris Russell is great at blocking shots and I don’t want him on my team.
I have no idea what his plus minus is and I really don’t care because I believe it to be a completely worthless stat. I’m more worried about the drop off in offence and continuing trend of being a poor possession player. But as I and another said earlier, I’d sure love to see what he can do with a different partner.

Totally agree on Lindholm tho and that’s why I don’t call it an outright loss... in my opinion the trade is close to even but I tend to say its a slight loss because I value Hamilton so much. That said, if they move Lindholm to center full time and he excels there and anchors his own line... then I’ll happily call the trade a win.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by jonkaupp

No I don’t want to because the argument is on a next level of stupid and waste of damn time. He is a front runner. Arguing that front runner can only be one guy is stupid and I don’t have time for it. Totally ridiculous. You and I both know what I was getting at but for some reason you are more interested in changing the argument. It’s very very dumb. You also said there are no finalists, when its well known that the top 3 vote getters are considered the finalists every single year but since it doesn’t fit whatever ridiculous narrow definition of what a finalist is then its a misnomer. You have succeeded in deflecting, I will give you that. The actual argument was whether Dougie being a potential Norris winner is a viable reason to call him an elite player but yet, here we are arguing about semantics. Are you a lawyer maybe?

Dougie Hamilton is one of the front runners for the Norris trophy as of right now, and that is because he is an elite no 1 defence men as far as I am concerned. That is why I don’t view the trade as a big win.

I am a lawyer. And front runner, especially “the front runner” as you said, means one thing only. That’s why you got push back. Plus you wouldn’t or couldn’t back up your statement.

The word finalists is my own pet peeve and i mention it when awards time comes around. It makes it seem like there’s a contest after they are named, which there isn’t. I didn’t even mention it as part of the point I was making anyway.

[jonkaupp]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I am a lawyer. And front runner, especially “the front runner” as you said, means one thing only. That’s why you got push back. Plus you wouldn’t or couldn’t back up your statement.

The word finalists is my own pet peeve and i mention it when awards time comes around. It makes it seem like there’s a contest after they are named, which there isn’t. I didn’t even mention it as part of the point I was making anyway.

As I already pointed out, my original post says ‘ A FRONT RUNNER’ BUT WHATEVER.. jesus

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by jonkaupp

As I already pointed out, my original post says ‘ A FRONT RUNNER’ BUT WHATEVER.. jesus

My mistake, but it really doesn’t make a difference. Unless you use English differently, front runner means the leader. And when asked, all you could say was “all hockey experts” said so.

In any event, I don’t think he appears on hockey experts’ lists of elite defencemen, Norris contention or no. Hell, Gio doesn’t appear on all those lists and he is twice the defenceman that Hamilton is.

[Hackey]

Lindholm and Hamilton are pretty even. Hamilton is a top pairing dman and Lindholm a first line player. I wouldnt say either are elite. Hanifin is definitely more valuable than a couple picks. I'd say Calgary wins the trade on that alone but it's close. Once you take contracts into consideration though it's an easy win for Calgary. Hamilton is probably gonna get close to what Lindholm and Hanifin make combined and Flames will have them for 3 more years at that point. If Hanifin develops further then I think it's a landslide for Calgary.

[Textcritic]

^
I just don't understand why someone has to "win" this trade. Both teams came out of it in great shape; both are better for it.

[Hackey]

Because every single trade is judged like that. Weird question.

[jonkaupp]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

^
I just don't understand why someone has to "win" this trade. Both teams came out of it in great shape; both are better for it.

Because not everyone views it as a win for both sides?

I lean Carolina but am still ultimately fine with it because of Lindholm turned into a totally different player from the one we traded for. But if Lindholm doesn’t turn into the player he did here as opposed to what he looked like in Carolina then this trade would have been a disaster. That said, I’ve purposely ignored Lindholms drop in offence this season while arguing these points, because it is legitimately more of a team wide problem and I believe it’ll return as the team sorts through its issues. I would hope.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by jonkaupp

Because not everyone views it as a win for both sides?

I lean Carolina but am still ultimately fine with it because of Lindholm turned into a totally different player from the one we traded for. But if Lindholm doesn’t turn into the player he did here as opposed to what he looked like in Carolina then this trade would have been a disaster. That said, I’ve purposely ignored Lindholms drop in offence this season while arguing these points, because it is legitimately more of a team wide problem and I believe it’ll return as the team sorts through its issues. I would hope.

And you don't think the same thing applies to Hamilton? He wasn't in any Norris conversations 2 years ago.

[jonkaupp]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

And you don't think the same thing applies to Hamilton? He wasn't in any Norris conversations 2 years ago.

Hamilton has improved but him and Gio combined to make the best defensive pair by almost all metrics in the league. His point totals were suppressed because the dumbest coaching staff in the league thought Brodie should run the power play instead of maybe the most talented goal scoring defense men in the league. Hamilton certainly has taken his game to the next level in Carolina, but all the signs that he would do that were apparent here as well. The leap that Lindholm made was waaayyyy more significant. But I’m sure glad it happened.

[Enoch Root]

Disagree. Hamilton was one-dimensional, and frustratingly inconsistent IMO.