Hockey Abuse Reckoning

[Itse]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

Right. In my experience the bully will test you to see how much you will put up with. Basically they are cowards, and as soon as you stand your ground they will back off. It not only happens in sports but throughout all aspect of life.

This has actually been studied, and it's generally speaking just a myth.

Bullies are generally less insecure than others, and they invariably have an advantage either physically or socially which they use to beat down on those who try to stand up to them, if they think they'll win. Which is the key part.

Bullies back down from power, either social or physical.

Besides, a bully backing off from you only helps you, and that only in the short term. If the bully stays around they'll either pick a new target or come back at you with a new plan.

It's the so called broken staircase thing; it's better to learn to fix it instead of learning how to avoid falling.

[flamesfever]

Originally Posted by Itse

Standing up to bullies is handling them. Getting rid of the worst cases instead of letting them pollute your workplace is a really good way of handling bullies, much better than silence and acceptance which is the old way.

It's the older generation that never learned how to handle bullies, which is why there's so many of them around.

Many in the older generation you talk about were victims of messed up parents coming back from WWII. You young people have not idea what it takes to have to obey orders from your superior or risk getting shot.

I dread the day when the young people of today have to fight another war.

[Red Potato Standing By]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

[/B]
Many in the older generation you talk about were victims of messed up parents coming back from WWII. You young people have not idea what it takes to have to obey orders from your superior or risk getting shot.

I dread the day when the young people of today have to fight another war.

Why? When WW2 started the veterans from WW1 said the same thing about the young men that had to go fight, they said they were too soft and wouldn’t be able to do it. Look how that turned out

[Itse]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

[/B]
Many in the older generation you talk about were victims of messed up parents coming back from WWII. You young people have not idea what it takes to have to obey orders from your superior or risk getting shot.

I dread the day when the young people of today have to fight another war.

Oh get over yourself. First of all, NA had it easy when it came to WW2 in comparison to Europe. Second, the generation who's parent experienced war are mostly starting to be retirees at this point. So likely not you. (Odds are you're no older than me, I'm in my fourties.)

Besides, not passing down war trauma from generation to generation is a good thing.

[flamesfever]

It's you fans that are demanding the rough, tough bullying brand of hockey, especially in the playoffs. Perhaps some of the more bullying coaches are trying to prepare the players for what they are going to experience on the ice.

[flamesfever]

Originally Posted by Itse

Oh get over yourself. First of all, NA had it easy when it came to WW2 in comparison to Europe. Second, the generation who's parent experienced war are mostly starting to be retirees at this point. So likely not you. (Odds are you're no older than me, I'm in my fourties.)

Besides, not passing down war trauma from generation to generation is a good thing.

Yeah, well I'm a lot older than you.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

It's you fans that are demanding the rough, tough bullying brand of hockey, especially in the playoffs. Perhaps some of the more bullying coaches are trying to prepare the players for what they are going to experience on the ice.

Oh please, you're really grasping at straws at this point.

I know perfectly respectful people who work as trainers in full contact martial arts. Bullying is not useful in building up the confidence you need to get in the ring.

(People do it, but it's not useful.)

[jlh2640]

So let me get this straight now. Sean Avery one of the biggest #######s in NHL history. A guy who made fun of Dustin Browns lisp. And called Dions wife a sloppy 2nd. Has come out and complained about Mark Crawford. Basically gotten him fired now. Only to tweet out his support for the guy now and talk about how good of a coach he was. Unreal. If this doesn’t show you how sad some of this crap is going to be now nothing will. I don’t even know what to say about it anymore.

[Boreal]

Originally Posted by jlh2640

So let me get this straight now. Sean Avery one of the biggest #######s in NHL history. A guy who made fun of Dustin Browns lisp. And called Dions wife a sloppy 2nd. Has come out and complained about Mark Crawford. Basically gotten him fired now. Only to tweet out his support for the guy now and talk about how good of a coach he was. Unreal. If this doesn’t show you how sad some of this crap is going to be now nothing will. I don’t even know what to say about it anymore.

What about what Patrick O'Sullivan said?

[manwiches]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

I think he is talking in generalities, and you are talking in specifics. I agree with him that in spite of changes in society, and the tendency to not put up with abuse, you can't change human nature. There will always be bullies, and learning how to handle them is part of life.

Thank you for clarifying. I was certainly talking in generalities, and definitely not to any specific situation.

Regardless of everybody's feelings towards getting bullying/abuse out of the workplace and world, this will never happen fully. It is up to us to ensure our children have the tools to deal with it, as they will more than likely experience it at some point in their lives. If everybody runs to their boss to solve their problems, no business would survive. I'm not saying stay quiet, because if it has crossed a line and communication has broken down, by all means, I would hope their is a forum that your workplace can handle that.

What I'm saying is, if there are situations that are just a matter of communicating both sides like adults and professionals, that should be done without escalating. Many issues I experienced at my old job, could have been mitigated by just coming to me and talking like an adult. A culture of fear, so to speak, is what I used to work in. It was demoralizing and pathetic.

In sports, in the moment, many problems are dealt with in the heat of the moment. In the locker room / bench, there should be an environment where players/coaches can talk and communicate. The culture of fear is not the way of the future, in any workplace.

My son is in kindergarten, and the biggest thing being taught by his teacher at that age is, if there is a problem, try to handle it yourself first with your words. If nothing happens after you've asked a couple times, then go to the teacher and advise. I'm also raising my son to learn to deal with his problems on his own, with his words, and with empathy. However, should things escalate, talk to an elder, or in the worse case, tell them off firmly. He will experience situations as he grows up, where he feels helpless, and I will always be there to give him advice, but my goal is to raise him to deal with his problems head on, without escalating to an authority, if need be. I feel that this generation is constantly running to someone else to fix their problems, and I don't want my son to grow up like that.

Sorry for the ramble/soapbox. I think I've said my piece on the subject, and I'll step back now.

[Flamenspiel]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

[/B]
Many in the older generation you talk about were victims of messed up parents coming back from WWII. You young people have not idea what it takes to have to obey orders from your superior or risk getting shot.

I dread the day when the young people of today have to fight another war.

In the voice of the dude in “The Big Lebowski”: “What the f***, has anything got to do with World War II?

This is not the military, it’s sports.

[jlh2640]

Originally Posted by nobles_point

What about what Patrick O'Sullivan said?

I am sure Osullivan, Sopel are not lying and Crawford should be investigated. But now we are listening to guys like Sean Avery and Dan Carcillo. . . . . . There has to be some thought in there of the type of guy who is making the complaints.

[Looch City]

Originally Posted by manwiches

Thank you for clarifying. I was certainly talking in generalities, and definitely not to any specific situation.

Regardless of everybody's feelings towards getting bullying/abuse out of the workplace and world, this will never happen fully. It is up to us to ensure our children have the tools to deal with it, as they will more than likely experience it at some point in their lives. If everybody runs to their boss to solve their problems, no business would survive. I'm not saying stay quiet, because if it has crossed a line and communication has broken down, by all means, I would hope their is a forum that your workplace can handle that.

What I'm saying is, if there are situations that are just a matter of communicating both sides like adults and professionals, that should be done without escalating. Many issues I experienced at my old job, could have been mitigated by just coming to me and talking like an adult. A culture of fear, so to speak, is what I used to work in. It was demoralizing and pathetic.

In sports, in the moment, many problems are dealt with in the heat of the moment. In the locker room / bench, there should be an environment where players/coaches can talk and communicate. The culture of fear is not the way of the future, in any workplace.

My son is in kindergarten, and the biggest thing being taught by his teacher at that age is, if there is a problem, try to handle it yourself first with your words. If nothing happens after you've asked a couple times, then go to the teacher and advise. I'm also raising my son to learn to deal with his problems on his own, with his words, and with empathy. However, should things escalate, talk to an elder, or in the worse case, tell them off firmly. He will experience situations as he grows up, where he feels helpless, and I will always be there to give him advice, but my goal is to raise him to deal with his problems head on, without escalating to an authority, if need be. I feel that this generation is constantly running to someone else to fix their problems, and I don't want my son to grow up like that.

Sorry for the ramble/soapbox. I think I've said my piece on the subject, and I'll step back now.

I understand what you're saying but I also think you're generalizing it too much here and losing one of the key points that started all this: it was a coach being abusive. This was not player to player interaction but a coach. A person in the position of power over a group of 18-40 year old adults.

How does hockey player in that situation ring the alarm or speak out without jeopardizing his career? Currently, the solutions are limited to "suck it up and deal with it/be a man", but we're hoping that these revelations change that and more athletes are encouraged to speak up.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by jlh2640

we are listening to guys like Sean Avery and Dan Carcillo. . . . . . There has to be some thought in there of the type of guy who is making the complaints.

Why? Who really knows what kind of guy anyone is?

[bax]

Originally Posted by troutman

Why? Who really knows what kind of guy anyone is?

And even then what is wrong with Avery and Carcillo? They have done plenty of good things. Avery was one of the first athlete's to stand up for LGBTQ rights and Carcillo has made great progress in the battle against head trauma and abuse.

[flamesfever]

Originally Posted by Iggy City

I understand what you're saying but I also think you're generalizing it too much here and losing one of the key points that started all this: it was a coach being abusive. This was not player to player interaction but a coach. A person in the position of power over a group of 18-40 year old adults.

How does hockey player in that situation ring the alarm or speak out without jeopardizing his career? Currently, the solutions are limited to "suck it up and deal with it/be a man", but we're hoping that these revelations change that and more athletes are encouraged to speak up.

I would think the first step for a player would be to have a one on one private conversation with the coach i.e. man to man looking him in the eye.

[Wastedyouth]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

I would think the first step for a player would be to have a one on one private conversation with the coach i.e. man to man looking him in the eye.

Why? What does that gain you? If you are intimidated or feel threatened, how do you think you accomplish this?

[flamesfever]

Originally Posted by Wastedyouth

Why? What does that gain you? If you are intimidated or feel threatened, how do you think you accomplish this?

In my experience, not in hockey, you gain respect...and respect is what it is all about.

[Eric Vail]

Originally Posted by troutman

Why? Who really knows what kind of guy anyone is?

I always have trouble with fans making claims on a player's character, or about what kind of human being they are, based on what they see from the stands or on TV.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

I would think the first step for a player would be to have a one on one private conversation with the coach i.e. man to man looking him in the eye.

Right, but that was likely not something that occurred in the age of "suck it up and take it like a man." And even if it did on occasion occur, it also seems likely that these conversations were not received well by the person in authority, and in such cases as Akim Aliu's actually contributed to furthering the abuse.

I still think that you are glossing over the real power that coaches for a long time weirded, and the real fear that young players under their charge experienced. For some, the effects were so traumatizing that they continued to suffer repercussions into later adulthood. As mentioned earlier, Johan Franzen—a 32-year-old 12-year professional player—suffered a nervous breakdown as a result of his treatment by his coach.