Godless Apostate

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by photon

For those who've switched, was there a point where you really internalized the belief that there was no afterlife waiting for you?

For me there seemed to be a very substantial lag between superficial brain belief "hey there's no heaven" to "holy crap there'll be a point where I'm not going to be existing" deep down belief. I'd been conditioned to believe in an afterlife for so long I think it took a decade to really REALLY believe there probably isn't.

Or maybe it's just because I'm older and everyone goes through that transition?

No, I'm still struggling with this (and I don't think you are much/any older than I am). I have a difficult tie with my own mortality, and especially with the realization that not only will I pass from existence, but that everything that I know and remember will be gone. It's so difficult to fathom the disappearance of memory.

I am still (perhaps foolishly) hoping that there is something else out there, because I selfishly want my life to go on.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by nik-

They won't allow you to go the Bart Ehrman route? He's a pretty prominent agnostic biblical scholar no?

It's more difficult in my case. Since 2014 I have been working with the Evangelical institution Museum of the Bible, and my affiliation with them has in many circles damaged my own reputation. On one side, I have endured enormous criticism for working with the group that actively propagates an American Christian political agenda, and has been complicit in the illegal antiquities market that destroys cultural heritage and promotes looting and extortion. On the other side I have also made powerful enemies for my exposure of careless vetting practices in academic circles of artefacts, and a number of these people can impede the possibility of my employment.

[PostandIn]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

It's more difficult in my case. Since 2014 I have been working with the Evangelical institution Museum of the Bible, and my affiliation with them has in many circles damaged my own reputation. On one side, I have endured enormous criticism for working with the group that actively propagates an American Christian political agenda, and has been complicit in the illegal antiquities market that destroys cultural heritage and promotes looting and extortion. On the other side I have also made powerful enemies for my exposure of careless vetting practices in academic circles of artefacts, and a number of these people can impede the possibility of my employment.

Wow, these are difficult personal and professional circumstances Textcritic. I wish you well. The road ahead does not appear to be an easy one and I admire your principles and courage. Lots would just keep their head down and play the role.

[Textcritic]

FYI: If anyone is interested, I uploaded a bunch of my course lectures to my YouTube channel.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis..._faoUyqhizVBF5

Unfortunately, some of my best ones—like my lecture on the Hebrew Bible and Yann Martel's The Life of Pi, and my lecture on the Dead Sea Scrolls and AMC's The Walking Dead—have been DMCAed for copyright claims. Weirdly, my lecture on human sacrifice with copious amounts of footage from Game of Thrones was unaffected.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

What percentage of staff do you think lie on those declarations so they can have a job?


Side note on that, it also seems crazy we as a country allow anyone to be discriminated on based on their beliefs, or lack thereof. Has this ever been charter challenged?

I expect that would be a difficult challenge to prove. In my case it is a matter of my contract expiring—I haven't been dismissed, but am certain that the university has no interest in my return.

Most of the time these conflicts are weeded out in the interview process for new hires. A number of years ago I was the top candidate for a position at a small school in NYC. They flew me out for on-campus interviews and trial lectures. During a departmental meeting questions were raised about how I might handle controversial issues and historically/culturally sensitive topics in my RELS classes. At the time I had started challenging traditional Evangelical teachings on Hell and the afterlife, and used this as an example. I said that if confronted buy something like this I would be honest: I was unsure about the nature of Hell, and hoped that there was no eternal torment in the afterlife, but that this was a question I could not resolve on the basis of my understanding of the historical development and cultural roots of the doctrine of Hell.

The members of the Department were very pleased with my answer, but later the next day in a meeting with the Dean he informs me that this could be a "deal-breaker." I did not get the job, and was assured that it was not because of my theology—I have always had my doubts.

I tell that story to illustrate how these things come out well ahead of time so as to avoid the sorts of direct challenges these confessional agreements could potentially evoke. But there have been instances in the US at Christian colleges and seminaries where professors have been removed from their posts for their failure to subscribe to specific points of doctrine: most famously, Paige Patterson—the former (now disgraced) President of Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary led a coupe of the Southern Baptist leadership which resulted ion the ouster of several faculty members (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southe...ive_resurgence). Closer to home for me, my friend Christopher Rollston (who now teaches at George Washington University) lost his job at a Christian college because of an opinion piece he wrote in opposition to antiquated misogynistic views against women: http://religionatthemargins.com/2012...red-despisers/.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

No, I'm still struggling with this (and I don't think you are much/any older than I am). I have a difficult tie with my own mortality, and especially with the realization that not only will I pass from existence, but that everything that I know and remember will be gone. It's so difficult to fathom the disappearance of memory.

I am still (perhaps foolishly) hoping that there is something else out there, because I selfishly want my life to go on.

Have either of you read Walker Percy's "Lost in the Cosmos?"

[photon]

Heh the Wikipedia entry had me at "The book contains numerous essays, quizzes, and "thought experiments" designed to satirize conventional self-help texts"

I'll have to check it out. EDIT: Yeah this sentence from one review has me intrigued "We may not know our Selves, but we certainly can embrace their journey, the romantic encounter with our own mystery that fills us with meaning."

That's the struggle is focusing on the journey after a lifetime of being trained to focus on the end goal.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by photon

Heh the Wikipedia entry had me at "The book contains numerous essays, quizzes, and "thought experiments" designed to satirize conventional self-help texts"

I'll have to check it out

Highly recommended. A work of genius, in fact.

Anyway, I am relieved that the Christian afterlife doesn't exist. What a dreary awful obsequious eternity. I remember my parents going on and on about singing hymns to God forever and I was like oh man I just want to get laid first.

[photon]

I remember one pastor, thinking he knew me, saying "Imagine getting to heaven and understanding the mysteries of the universe".

I thought "man you don't understand me AT ALL, that would be the worst! Give me infinite time to learn everything, now you're talking."

[HockeyIlliterate]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I expect that would be a difficult challenge to prove. In my case it is a matter of my contract expiring—I haven't been dismissed, but am certain that the university has no interest in my return.

If you are still interested in teaching, perhaps there is a spot for you at Pepperdine. Nominally religious, but they are on the more far-left liberal side of the spectrum for its background, and its campus is stunning.

[Snuffleupagus]

I started to convert to atheism at about 11, it started when I prayed for 5 days that my dog would come home safe and he didn't, after that I started to see things differently and even more clearly. Years later I still can't be 100% sure there is no god but I'm 99.9% sure there is no religious god that we humans have worshiped over the years.

As for the decline, the internet and social media is a big part of it's decline and it will kill religion eventually

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

I started to convert to atheism at about 11, it started when I prayed for 5 days that my dog would come home safe and he didn't, after that I started to see things differently and even more clearly. Years later I still can't be 100% sure there is no god but I'm 99.9% sure there is no religious god that we humans have worshiped over the years.

Okay, so it didn't take much to shake your faith. Sounds like you were a skeptic at heart and were looking for a reason.

As for the decline, the internet and social media is a big part of it's decline and it will kill religion eventually

I'm skeptical of this as it seems that the internet has been a place to espouse religious beliefs to anyone who will listen. I can't say this with certainty, but zealotry seems to be on the rise in the world. This likely has to do with open communication platforms to send that message out to the impressionable.

[#-3]

Originally Posted by peter12

Dead Sea Scrolls.

I would be curious to hear the background on how they changed your thinking? I think deconversion stories are pretty interesting.

As an atheist I would feel pretty confident in making and defending two big assertions;

Every formal religions conceptualization of a diety has enough negative evidence for us to confidently assert they do not exist. I can't think of a concept that I would find acceptable within my current model of the universe, but I think it would look allot closer to the simulation postulate than an actively involved diety with a reward based after life or reincarnation system, and I have big misgivings with the simulation theory as I think its just a cheap way to get out of saying "I don't know"

The decline in religion is no longer only coming from the replacement of old people. Some of the most religious people I know have drastically soften in their views. And several of the most avid church goers I know are pretty much open atheists to who prefer the community. I think as the network effects of churches brake down, and their monopoly on community declines, this trend will become difficult to reverse.


I think there are Skeptics and Agnostics that would prefer not to make positive assertions, but I will. The earth is not 6000 years old, Every living species did not bottle neck to two individuals 3500 years ago, Men evolved and were not created, there are no space aliens trapped in a volcano giving us consciousness, our consciousness does not rule a distant planet after we die, we do not have an essence of being that becomes another creature, super powered humans did not live on a mountain toying with the lives of humans.........

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by #-3

I think there are Skeptics and Agnostics that would prefer not to make positive assertions, but I will. The earth is not 6000 years old, Every living species did not bottle neck to two individuals 3500 years ago, Men evolved and were not created, there are no space aliens trapped in a volcano giving us consciousness, our consciousness does not rule a distant planet after we die, we do not have an essence of being that becomes another creature, super powered humans did not live on a mountain toying with the lives of humans.........

Most of those are scientific facts, while the others are simply debunked pseudoscientific claims.

That does not preclude the existence of a god. It simply discounts the creation/afterlife myths of countless faiths. God may still exist.

It's not an unreasonable position to accept the facts and reality that science brings and still believe in a god. The two are not mutually exclusive, and never have been in truth.

And I say that as a strong agnostic.

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

Okay, so it didn't take much to shake your faith. Sounds like you were a skeptic at heart and were looking for a reason.

Possibly, I was 11 but I think it was the defining moment

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

I'm skeptical of this as it seems that the internet has been a place to espouse religious beliefs to anyone who will listen. I can't say this with certainty, but zealotry seems to be on the rise in the world. This likely has to do with open communication platforms to send that message out to the impressionable.

I just think it's impossible to shelter people today, for every religious website or social media posts there's 100 more for science or alternatives, for instance without any direction from his parents or grandparents my 9 year grandson calls god "a silly lie" yes, a 9 year old said that. admittedly he's a science freak and would probably make most paleontologists blush with his knowledge of dinosaurs. this kid was operating an iPad at 2 years old and that isn't even strange now days.

Christian churches are closing all around the world because the believers are dying and the youth today don't believe in religion and the internet most likely has a lot to do with it.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

I just think it's impossible to shelter people today, for every religious website or social media posts there's 100 more for science or alternatives, for instance without any direction from his parents or grandparents my 9 year grandson calls god "a silly lie" yes, a 9 year old said that. admittedly he's a science freak and would probably make most paleontologists blush with his knowledge of dinosaurs. this kid was operating an iPad at 2 years old and that isn't even strange now days.

Christian churches are closing all around the world because the believers are dying and the youth today don't believe in religion and the internet most likely has a lot to do with it.

People join for many reasons. I was raised in a home where my mother took us 3 kids to church each Sunday. As we got older we rebelled and fought with mother every Sunday so we didn't have to go. She got tired of the fighting and stopped taking us.

I joined an Evangelical Church (Early 80's) when I was 20 years old. I was curious and wanted to know what was so important that our mother would want to take us every Sunday. I went in with an open mind and tried to learn as a much as possible. I remember being always skeptical and was never fully converted. My pastor and I would some great arguments about God and if he has any influence in our lives. I once told him God was an "absentee landlord" and that life is what we make of it. He had stunned look on his face when I left.

I stayed for 15 years mostly due to the friendships I had formed over the years and some of the good work our church did in the community. There was an incident I talked about early in the thread that caused me to leave.

You have others have joined because they need a sense of belonging and a purpose for their lives.

[DuffMan]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

That does not preclude the existence of a god. It simply discounts the creation/afterlife myths of countless faiths. God may still exist.

It's not an unreasonable position to accept the facts and reality that science brings and still believe in a god. The two are not mutually exclusive, and never have been in truth.
.

Saying god could still exist is like saying unicorns could still exist (not being a dick, just pointing that out)

How could a person accept the facts and science and still believe a god exists without a shred of proof, ever? Blind faith or something more?

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by Dion

People join for many reasons. I was raised in a home where my mother took us 3 kids to church each Sunday. As we got older we rebelled and fought with mother every Sunday so we didn't have to go. She got tired of the fighting and stopped taking us.

I joined an Evangelical Church (Early 80's) when I was 20 years old. I was curious and wanted to know what was so important that our mother would want to take us every Sunday. I went in with an open mind and tried to learn as a much as possible. I remember being always skeptical and was never fully converted. My pastor and I would some great arguments about God and if he has any influence in our lives. I once told him God was an "absentee landlord" and that life is what we make of it. He had stunned look on his face when I left.

I stayed for 15 years mostly due to the friendships I had formed over the years and some of the good work our church did in the community. There was an incident I talked about early in the thread that caused me to leave.

You have others have joined because they need a sense of belonging and a purpose for their lives.

I think you missed my point, I suspect if you were bore 1990 or later you wouldn't be curious about any church

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by DuffMan

Saying god could still exist is like saying unicorns could still exist (not being a dick, just pointing that out)

How could a person accept the facts and science and still believe a god exists without a shred of proof, ever? Blind faith or something more?

My 9 year old grandson would tell you unicorns did exist.

The real unicorn, or 'Elasmotherium sibiricu'

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

I think you missed my point, I suspect if you were bore 1990 or later you wouldn't be curious about any church

I disagree. In 2001 I invited some Mormons into my home to teach me about their faith and why they believed what they did. I was curious and had some free time on my hand. Of course I rejected their beliefs and didn't join their Church. For me it was about learning about something new and maybe just maybe some of our discussions would cause them to look at their faith and question what they believed. Plant the seed of doubt and see where it goes.