Evan Woolley's motion to reconsider Flames Arena funding fails 4-11

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by topfiverecords

I'm not 100% up to date, but I thought the green line had to go to the SE first because of the location of the maintenance facility?

Originally Posted by Joborule

That's their reasoning behind it, as well as city owning all the required right of way for the line already in SE. But there's a big area in the north right by inbetween Beddington Trail and Airport Trail that could have the maintenance facility, but it was never seriously considered.

Originally Posted by accord1999

Aurora Business Park at 96th Avenue N is large enough for a maintenance yard.

But picking the direction of the Green Line based on the ideal location of for a maintenance yard, versus the higher ridership and bus capacity constraints of Centre Street N, is the tail wagging to the dog

A big reason for going south was because Keating fought hard for it, and Chu supported it presumably because LRTs are only a small step up on bicycles, so that's where the political will shifted. Given the land acquisition being easier going SE with an easy maintenance yard, that's how they went with it. The idea going SE was the plan is a big reason for choosing a SE maintenance yard which is why it made going SE the more prudent move...so yeah.



Having the North route going up Centre Street, where people actually are, instead of up Nose Creek, where people are not, is also relatively new in the whole Green Line saga as well, which is part of the reason the land acquisition and ROW was behind the SE (which was exacerbated when the focus was put on going SE).

[Rando]

Originally Posted by DiracSpike

Buddy you're the one posting their gross revenue like it counts for a hill of a beans when you have no idea what their costs or net revenue is. You were clearly confused it's ok, that happens. Now you know better that gross revenue counts for jack #### and you should refrain from tossing it out in future discussions about the financial viability of the Flames.

Originally Posted by nik-

When all the economic arguments fail, go to fear. Fear is all that's left.

Rage, don't forget rage.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by stone hands

can we stop pretending for one second that billionaires own sports teams because it a sound investment vehicle instead of it being an extremely prestigious toy they can flaunt to their other billionaire friends and are in the hockey business because they personally want to own a hockey team and no other reason?

Can we stop pretending that "billionaires" are a monolithic group who think and act the same?

[Canadianman]

I guess it is to be expected, but this is definitely a pro-flames echo chamber.

The average Calgarian isn't going to be happy to pay $300,000,000 to build the Flames a new arena, especially when taxes are increasing. To most people it will simply be a tax to build a new playground for a bunch of billionaires.

If the Flames can't pay for their own arena, then let move to Moose Jaw or Houston or wherever else they think they can sucker the population into building them an arena.

[jmac98]

I don't mind that it's being brought up at council, regardless to the outcome.

A lot of people are mentioning the arena as a direct response to the budget cuts. It's spoken of on tv, in comments below news articles online, at the office cooler, here in this very forum, wherever. Addressing is at council will at least acknowledge it's and understood concern to citizens with respect to the current budget issues.

It likely goes nowhere but at least its noted versus ignored.

[stone hands]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Can we stop pretending that "billionaires" are a monolithic group who think and act the same?

you are correct

some of them, like robert kraft, recognize this and pay for a new arena for their toy to play in on their own, and most others rely on heavy corporate welfare because your average sports fan loves laundry more than their brain and it overrides common sense

the same people clamoring for an upheaval in our municipal government due to overspending are totally fine with giving a half a dozen billionaires hundreds of millions of dollars so they can personally pay more money for the exact same product they currently receive, its utter madness

call me crazy, but if the flames are seen as an investment vehicle instead of a prestigious toy, and require the government to subsidize their business to stay viable, maybe they shouldnt be here? maybe we can't support an nhl team. food for thought

[flambers]

Originally Posted by jmac98

I don't mind that it's being brought up at council, regardless to the outcome.

A lot of people are mentioning the arena as a direct response to the budget cuts. It's spoken of on tv, in comments below news articles online, at the office cooler, here in this very forum, wherever. Addressing is at council will at least acknowledge it's and understood concern to citizens with respect to the current budget issues.

It likely goes nowhere but at least its noted versus ignored.

Yet, the councilors are requesting for 1 project to be cancelled to be redirected to another project.

It does nothing to address the budget cuts within City of Calgary.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by stone hands

can we stop pretending for one second that billionaires own sports teams because it a sound investment vehicle instead of it being an extremely prestigious toy they can flaunt to their other billionaire friends and are in the hockey business because they personally want to own a hockey team and no other reason?

Ehh, not really. The Flames' estimated franchise value has gone from $135 million in 2006 to $450 million as of 2018. That averages about a 10% increase every year for over a decade. Teams are a toy, but they have also become a sound investment vehicle.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by stone hands

you are correct

some of them, like robert kraft, recognize this and pay for a new arena for their toy to play in on their own, and most others rely on heavy corporate welfare because your average sports fan loves laundry more than their brain and it overrides common sense

the same people clamoring for an upheaval in our municipal government due to overspending are totally fine with giving a half a dozen billionaires hundreds of millions of dollars so they can personally pay more money for the exact same product they currently receive, its utter madness

call me crazy, but if the flames are seen as an investment vehicle instead of a prestigious toy, and require the government to subsidize their business to stay viable, maybe they shouldnt be here? maybe we can't support an nhl team. food for thought

If you think the City gets no value from an arena deal, or the presence of a pro sports team, then don't support an arena deal. If you think they get some value then there's a start for negotiations.

[jmac98]

Originally Posted by flambers

Yet, the councilors are requesting for 1 project to be cancelled to be redirected to another project.

It does nothing to address the budget cuts within City of Calgary.

I'm not suggesting their answers are perfect, I'm just saying theres a lot of noise regarding the arena at this time so it's not a bad thing to acknowledge it.

[OMG!WTF!]

They don't even know what they're building yet or how much they're going to spend or what the route will be. The arena will be finished before they puzzle this one out. Chances are good it will be another 290 million in the burning barrel. There are several real advantages to a bus route.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Rando

Some of us posting here really need to learn the difference between the words revenue and profit.

Are you talking to me? I certainly know the difference hence my post.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by stone hands

you are correct

some of them, like robert kraft, recognize this and pay for a new arena for their toy to play in on their own, and most others rely on heavy corporate welfare because your average sports fan loves laundry more than their brain and it overrides common sense

the same people clamoring for an upheaval in our municipal government due to overspending are totally fine with giving a half a dozen billionaires hundreds of millions of dollars so they can personally pay more money for the exact same product they currently receive, its utter madness

call me crazy, but if the flames are seen as an investment vehicle instead of a prestigious toy, and require the government to subsidize their business to stay viable, maybe they shouldnt be here? maybe we can't support an nhl team. food for thought

That is fine as long as you accept that with the way the oil industry is going the new arena and the Flames will be the main draw to keep people there. That upgraded transit system will be real useful when the population starts rapidly dropping.

[puckbrain]

houston bound.....

[stone hands]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

That is fine as long as you accept that with the way the oil industry is going the new arena and the Flames will be the main draw to keep people there. That upgraded transit system will be real useful when the population starts rapidly dropping.

i can unequivocally state that the calgary flames are not the main draw for people to stay in calgary. give your head a shake bud

[powderjunkie]

The Flames are NOT paying $80M+ in player salaries.

The current cap mid point is ~71M, after many, many years of players invoking the 5% escalator. All 31 teams are above this 'midpoint' in cap spending. The Flames pay their share of 50% league-wide HRR. Maybe somebody has the real numbers, but it's probably around $68-70M real money.

Plus, there is plenty of revenue beyond current definition of HRR (a bone of contention for the PA).

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Can we stop pretending that "billionaires" are a monolithic group who think and act the same?

Sure...right after we start doing the same for Canada's indigenous communities.

[Rando]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

That is fine as long as you accept that with the way the oil industry is going the new arena and the Flames will be the main draw to keep people there..

Really??

That upgraded transit system will be real useful when the population starts rapidly dropping

The North-Central LRT is needed a decade ago. The Calgary population is still growing, albeit slower than before.

No disrespect dissentowner but IIRC you're not in Calgary and you're coming at this exclusivly as a Flames fan. It shows. Most of your most either can't be proven or are easily dismissible. Perhaps the town of Dissen lost a hockey team and it still hurts.

[Flamenspiel]

I am not convinced about Houston, it has some of the same problems as Calgary. Right now they are attractive because there is very little regulation of the energy industry, but that could change in the long term.

On top of that the climate is oppressive, certainly the worst of any NHL city.

[puckbrain]

Originally Posted by DiracSpike

Yes they can.

Sincerely,

The Seattle SuperSonics, San Diego Chargers, Atlanta Thrashers, St Louis Rams, and Montreal Expos.

you forgot cleveland browns....

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Sure...right after we start doing the same for Canada's indigenous communities.

That's not even remotely relevant to the topic. Unlike the motivations of "billionaires" as it relates to sports ownership.