Evan Woolley's motion to reconsider Flames Arena funding fails 4-11

[Dragomir]

Originally Posted by shogged

I want the new arena, but I think the green line is the more important piece of public infrastructure. This will be an interesting debate

I agree, I support the green line more because it will definitely benefit more people in the long run, as well as the environment.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by shogged

I want the new arena, but I think the green line is the more important piece of public infrastructure. This will be an interesting debate

If you frame it as an either or. 4.5 billion vs 300 million the projects are not related. Even with the 1.5 billion city contribution vs 1.2 billion it doesn’t make a difference. And if the province has gone from 1.5 billion to 0 the project as an LRT is dead. Plus you still need another 2.5 billion to finish which has not be allocated.

[Rando]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

Yes, because Houston wouldn't be a goldmine for the NHL. I would bet the house if the Flames don't get a new arena and they want to relocate to Houston, Bettman approves it so fast your head will spin.

Bettman can't approve it, the Board of Governors approves it. There are also many hoops a team must go through before it even gets to that stage. Like making a good faith effort to find alternate local owners.

Houston would be huge for the NHL, when they pay the 650million expansion fee.

[Joborule]

Originally Posted by Rando

Bettman can't approve it, the Board of Governors approves it. There are also many hoops a team must go through before it even gets to that stage. Like making a good faith effort to find alternate local owners.

Houston would be huge for the NHL, when they pay the 650million expansion fee.

Honestly, once Seattle starts, I don't think NHL will be in the mood to expand anytime soon. 32 teams is healthy for the league presently. Relocation would be the option.

[DiracSpike]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

Yes, because Houston wouldn't be a goldmine for the NHL. I would bet the house if the Flames don't get a new arena and they want to relocate to Houston, Bettman approves it so fast your head will spin.

No kidding, it’s an easy sales pitch at that. Hey NHL owners/board of governors/whomever, here’s two scenarios for you.

Scenario A: Keep a team in a small Canadian hockey market that would watch hockey on Rogers whether or not they had a team. They play in the oldest building in the league that’s keeping them from earning money in lockstep with all the other franchises, and their city council recently ####ed you over by tearing up a good faith deal after the fact.

Scenario B: Gain new exposure in a novel market that is also the fourth biggest in the US where they play in a modern building and are owned by a guy with gobs of money that would be one of the richest owners in the league. They also create a ready made rivalry with Dallas that can get all Texans, the second largest state, interested in hockey. On top of all that you get a bonus of hundreds of millions of dollars in relocation fees.

Gee, that’s a tough one I wonder which one they’ll go with. I almost want it to happen to see the reaction of all the deluded masses that think there’s something special about Calgary that we can keep a team while backing out on a needed arena deal.

[CSharp]

Originally Posted by nik-

So your stance is to not improve it and build an arena instead.

Seems logical.

It's the better of the two evils. It's cheaper to build a new arena that will inject money back into the City over a shorter period of time. City and Flames would actually share the revenues on all tickets for whatever is hosted there. Plus, not only does the arena make money, surrounding business and the downtown areas also gets an injection.

Like all other implemented lines that was supposed to take massive amounts of vehicles off the roads in Calgary, that hasn't worked because the city's transit system is so inefficient. The infrastructure going into downtown core is so abysmal it's not even funny. It's not built to handle multiple lines efficiently. If any of the lines are stuck, basically all of the stations are stuck waiting. They have existing tunnels downtown that aren't even used due to the high water table and river systems under the downtown core. This is one reason why so many people still drive to downtown even if the cost of parking is high.

So, if the City builds the new arena first, when businesses starts to pick up, then build the Green Line. In the mean time, I'd suggest the City build better infrastructure to support multiple lines going through downtown without going into billions of dollars like what the Green Line will cost. If you don't start to provide business opportunities in the downtown area, is going to take a lot longer to get companies other than Oil & Gas to come in. YOu don't even need another LRT line if there's not even businesses in downtown for this city to support.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Rando

oOoOoOoOoOoOoO scary!

The Atlanta Thrashers did not just pack up and leave town either. Their owners lost 160 million over six seasons previous, they were sold, then had to get approval from the NHL board of governors to move. The Flames make over 100million , are a successful franchise and won't be approved.

Factor in the 650million expansion fee the league would miss out on if they just moved a franchise instead of pushing for a new one, which is what they're dong.

Let Bettman and the owners puff up their chests. I put as much stock into it as Wexit.

They make over $100 million? I don’t think so.

The Canadian TV deal is one of the biggest anchors for a Canadian franchise looking to relocate. It is big money for the NHL and losing one team would have a big impact on that presumably.

[Bigtime]

Originally Posted by Bigtime

So who are votes that will be a "lock" to go against Woolley's motion? I'm thinking:

-Magliocca
-Sutherland
-Davison
-Demong
-Nenshi
-DCU

That right there ends it.

I should correct my guesses here, Demong voted against the arena last time. So I wouldn’t put him down as a lock against Woolley’s motion.

[powderjunkie]

That is all predicated on being unable to find a buyer who is happy to keep the team here, be it in the saddledome or attempting to strike a more reasonable deal with the city...and also on a non-local buyer willing to pay a price high enough that Flames owners would accept that is also apparently lower than what Florida, Arizona, Carolina, Ottawa, or any other team would be willing to accept.

The other question is whether there are enough NHL owners who desperately want to keep the arena extortion game going (at the expense of strong TV revenue and solid gate). Anaheim/San Jose (1993) are the next oldest buildings, with a bunch of others in mid 90s. IMO, by the time these teams are plotting their extortion plans, the Flames situation will be a distant memory.

The city played their hand poorly. Rushing the initial vote through in a week during the summer. They had very little to lose, and major concession(s) to gain by allowing a bit more public discourse. The Flames had everything to lose by pushing all-in on a move threat.

[Rando]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

They make over $100 million? I don’t think so.

According to Forbes

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by DiracSpike

No kidding, it’s an easy sales pitch at that. Hey NHL owners/board of governors/whomever, here’s two scenarios for you.



Scenario A: Keep a team in a small Canadian hockey market that would watch hockey on Rogers whether or not they had a team. They play in the oldest building in the league that’s keeping them from earning money in lockstep with all the other franchises, and their city council recently ####ed you over by tearing up a good faith deal after the fact.



Scenario B: Gain new exposure in a novel market that is also the fourth biggest in the US where they play in a modern building and are owned by a guy with gobs of money that would be one of the richest owners in the league. They also create a ready made rivalry with Dallas that can get all Texans, the second largest state, interested in hockey. On top of all that you get a bonus of hundreds of millions of dollars in relocation fees.



Gee, that’s a tough one I wonder which one they’ll go with. I almost want it to happen to see the reaction of all the deluded masses that think there’s something special about Calgary that we can keep a team while backing out on a needed arena deal.

How long does the novelty of having a hockey team in Houston last? Maybe the only people interested are Canadian ex-pats or Canadians who have a long layover. Nobody will pay to watch a Houston hockey team on TV.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Rando

According to Forbes

When all the economic arguments fail, go to fear. Fear is all that's left.

[Matty81]

How many people are on city council, wondering how likely this is to pass?

This would effectively be a stake through the heart of the flames in calgary and from my perspective be a crippling reputational blow to Calgary given the economic challenges happening in parallel.

If it were a one or the other decision I could see merit in backtracking but this just looks like grandstanding by a tool.

[Rando]

Originally Posted by Matty81

How many people are on city council, wondering how likely this is to pass?.

Bigtime covered it, it's highly unlikely to pass. This is grandstanding by Woolley, who's been doing it more-so lately.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Wormius

How long does the novelty of having a hockey team in Houston last? Maybe the only people interested are Canadian ex-pats or Canadians who have a long layover. Nobody will pay to watch a Houston hockey team on TV.

I don’t know about that. Houston is a plenty viable market, that’s not the issue here.

[drewtastic]

I support the "Green Line", only inasmuch as it comes to the #NorthernHills , a community WAY overdue for public transit access.

Failing this, build the damned arena. Who cares anymore?

#IMayBeDrunk

[powderjunkie]

This image sums up the problem with the current green line plan:


Look at how much larger the SE catchment area is to achieve competitive numbers with the north. The bulk of the population is well south of Shepard stage 1 terminus, and the bulk of the jobs are well east of the line (mostly on the other side of a canal). They've drawn the entire SE city limits (and presumably used it for the numbers)...is the green line really going to do anything for someone working in a warehouse on the east side of Stoney Trail, over 7km away from the nearest green station?

This abomination won't even be ready until 2026 at the earliest. My newborn will have grey hair by the time the line reaches Seton or Country Hills. Though to be fair...we go grey very early in my family.

The SE leg is shaped like a dumbbell - broad destination areas on each end with very little in between. Buses actually make sense for that (no need for express commuter buses to stop 5 times like the train would).

The plan was for SE BRT for a longtime, until the money fairy made a shocking appearance before a federal election. They're going back and forth on at-grade vs. tunnel and route termini, but they should really be re-thinking whether the SE actually needs LRT right now.


As much as I'd love council to renege on the arena deal, it would undermine every other decision they ever make. Woolley may be grandstanding, but I'm glad he is. People in this city should be reminded of the ridiculousness that played out over ~7 days in August. Those that missed it, should hear the cliff notes now. IMO Woolley was right about the arena then, and he is still right now, even though it is too late to do anything about it. He's also right about the current Green Line running from "nowhere to nowhere"...thankfully there is still plenty of time to fix it, though the decision making of late does not inspire confidence.

[Racki]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

Yes, because Houston wouldn't be a goldmine for the NHL. I would bet the house if the Flames don't get a new arena and they want to relocate to Houston, Bettman approves it so fast your head will spin.

Houston is the 4th largest city in America and it has no NHL team. Gott think the NHL has plans to be there t some point.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Dragomir

I agree, I support the green line more because it will definitely benefit more people in the long run, as well as the environment.

The cost of the arena is a drop in the bucket of what the green line will cost...you are debating it as if they have a similar cost like its one or the other

[Yoho]

Davidson has this in the bag like Marty Bird in the Ozarks.

Green line will be cancelled before arena.