Owner of Shop sues Homeless

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by WCE

I'd say that this prominent attitude is a sign that we as a society have failed.

Respectfully, what are you talking about Willis.

This business owner has had his business disrupted repeatedly over the years, he called the police repeatedly, and they shooed them off only to have them return. If anyone is reponsible for safeguarding this owners business and property its the police, and they could have been more efficient by contacting whatever groups they needed to contact in order to get these people out of there.

Its not the shop owners job to go chase down homeless agencies, or to do the charitable thing, the owners already lost countless dollars due to this problem.

[WCE]

To answer you both (rubecube and Cap'n);

The fact that the question and news story catching all the attention is where the responsibility for the removal of these homeless people lays instead of why the homeless are there in the first place (in a wealthy country choking itself on over-consumption) is sad.

The realization that as a society we are willing to overlook that little factoid and segway into this other question of legal responsibility, to me, is a sign that society has effectively failed.

Well, the type of society I want to live in anyway - the type that I would want my (future?) kids to be brought into.

The post was was just a quick little social commentary quip; nothing more and nothing less.

I was browsing through and it happened to catch my eye (especially as someone who has spent more than a few hours doing food drives and social advocacy here in Vancouver).

[Flashpoint]

Originally Posted by WCE

To answer you both (rubecube and Cap'n);

The fact that the question and news story catching all the attention is where the responsibility for the removal of these homeless people lays instead of why the homeless are there in the first place (in a wealthy country choking itself on over-consumption) is sad.

The realization that as a society we are willing to overlook that little factoid and segway into this other question of legal responsibility, to me, is a sign that society has effectively failed.

Well, the type of society I want to live in anyway - the type that I would want my (future?) kids to be brought into.

The post was was just a quick little social commentary quip; nothing more and nothing less.

I was browsing through and it happened to catch my eye (especially as someone who has spent more than a few hours doing food drives and social advocacy here in Vancouver).

Great post. The problem is not that homeless people are attracted to the front of this guy's store. The problem is that people are homeless, and are sleeping on a heating grate so that they don't freeze at night. We as a society will be judged by how we treat our weakest members. As some of the wealthiest people on earth, we need to find better solutions than "Move em somewhere else or I sue!"

[ken0042]

One thing I was thinking about- what is the cause of people being homeless? Aside from those who have mental problems, isn't one of the other problems people unable to make ends meet; because of the costs of living?

Why wouldn't people want to move to a smaller city/town? Would it be better to be homeless in Calgary, or living in a small apartment in Medicine Hat?

I'm just thinking back to when I was younger and stuggling to get by- I move away from Calgary and back to Winnipeg for a couple of years to get myself back on my feet.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by ken0042

One thing I was thinking about- what is the cause of people being homeless? Aside from those who have mental problems, isn't one of the other problems people unable to make ends meet; because of the costs of living?

Why wouldn't people want to move to a smaller city/town? Would it be better to be homeless in Calgary, or living in a small apartment in Medicine Hat?

I'm just thinking back to when I was younger and stuggling to get by- I move away from Calgary and back to Winnipeg for a couple of years to get myself back on my feet.

I think part of the problem is that many people move from the small towns to the cities expecting to make it big. Then once they are there and realize the opportunities are not a big as they thought, some become homeless and it's hard to leave. Many homeless people get hooked on drugs, and they become so mentally incapable of escaping that. Also, if they don't already have a job lined up in another town, it's hard to go to another town. Social assistance is not always willing to help people who move in from elsewhere.

[moon]

Originally Posted by WCE

To answer you both (rubecube and Cap'n);

The fact that the question and news story catching all the attention is where the responsibility for the removal of these homeless people lays instead of why the homeless are there in the first place (in a wealthy country choking itself on over-consumption) is sad.

The realization that as a society we are willing to overlook that little factoid and segway into this other question of legal responsibility, to me, is a sign that society has effectively failed.

Well, the type of society I want to live in anyway - the type that I would want my (future?) kids to be brought into.

The post was was just a quick little social commentary quip; nothing more and nothing less.

I was browsing through and it happened to catch my eye (especially as someone who has spent more than a few hours doing food drives and social advocacy here in Vancouver).

I would agree if everyone was turning their heads and ignoring homelss people that the plight of the homeless should be the number one focus of that article, but there are many many programs, agencies and charities out there trying to help these people. Could more be done? I am sure it could, but the problem is that many of these people do not want help.

While this shows the fact that more needs to be done to help the homeless I think it also shows the problems that these people can create for average citizens trying to go about the way and make a living.

[mykalberta]

If the store owner wins he will have a legal right to get a court order for the person(s) not to come near his store until the fine is paid.

MYK

[WCE]

Originally Posted by moon

I would agree if everyone was turning their heads and ignoring homelss people that the plight of the homeless should be the number one focus of that article, but there are many many programs, agencies and charities out there trying to help these people.

How many millions walk by the homeless in our major cities without making eye contact and breaking on by?

How many give it a second thought before they plan out what they are going to order at Starbucks come lunchtime?

The sheer visible number of homeless shows that the "many many programs, agencies and chartities" either aren't numerous enough or they aren't effective.

Could more be done? I am sure it could, but the problem is that many of these people do not want help.

I am more and more disheartened by the indifference people are willing to show toward the disadvantaged...But this comment goes beyond that.

Don't want to be helped?

**** me.

Who wants to have to deficate in an alley? Wants to sleep outside in the cold and rain? Wants to...

It goes on and on.

Perhaps the ways we have been trying to solve the problem are the issue? Rat intested social housing dumps? Degrading and dehumanizing clean-up programs?

Do you have any idea how many of these people who "don't want to be helped" have crippling mental diseases? Addicitions?

Do you not think that the closing down of hospitals that used to treats these people isn't critically responsible for the influx?

While this shows the fact that more needs to be done to help the homeless I think it also shows the problems that these people can create for average citizens trying to go about the way and make a living.

Which takes precedence?

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by WCE

How many millions walk by the homeless in our major cities without making eye contact and breaking on by?

How many give it a second thought before they plan out what they are going to order at Starbucks come lunchtime?

The sheer visible number of homeless shows that the "many many programs, agencies and chartities" either aren't numerous enough or they aren't effective.



I am more and more disheartened by the indifference people are willing to show toward the disadvantaged...But this comment goes beyond that.

Don't want to be helped?

**** me.

Who wants to have to deficate in an alley? Wants to sleep outside in the cold and rain? Wants to...

It goes on and on.

Perhaps the ways we have been trying to solve the problem are the issue? Rat intested social housing dumps? Degrading and dehumanizing clean-up programs?

Do you have any idea how many of these people who "don't want to be helped" have crippling mental diseases? Addicitions?

Do you not think that the closing down of hospitals that used to treats these people isn't critically responsible for the influx?





Which takes precedence?

Well excuse me all to hell for not wanting to give $5 of my money that I work 40 hours a week for to someone who won't find a job in an economically sound city. And I guess I'm the ******* forcing people to get ****ed on listerine and crack and then go **** in the C-Train. Probably even more of an ******* for trying to ignore the brash, crude, obnoxious, foul nature of derelicts shouting in public places.

You can only help people who are willing to help themselves.

[WCE]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Well excuse me all to hell for not wanting to give $5 of my money that I work 40 hours a week for to someone who won't find a job in an economically sound city. And I guess I'm the ******* forcing people to get ****ed on listerine and crack and then go **** in the C-Train. Probably even more of an ******* for trying to ignore the brash, crude, obnoxious, foul nature of derelicts shouting in public places.

You can only help people who are willing to help themselves.

And what of the mentally ill and destitute without support systems that can't help themselves?

Those of which comprise the vast majority of the people we are talking about?

Despite liberal capitalism's dogma that everyone has a choice and is on a level playing field...We are not.

There are disadvantaged. There are mentally ill and others who are not capable of holding down a job in an economically sound city.

It's not about you giving up that $5 dollars so you won't have that extra foamy cafe latte at Starbucks tomorrow. It's about realizing that there is a social problem that WE as a society have ignored for far too long given how economically sound we are. After understanding that it is about making real efforts to correct some fundamental human wrongs that continue to take place.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by WCE

And what of the mentally ill and destitute without support systems that can't help themselves?

These are not the people I'm talking about. I'm talking about the people (like the guy I saw last night) who ask for $2 for food and then you see them buying crack two minutes later.

On a sidenote, I wouldn't mind seing some statistics on how many homeless people have a legitimate mental illness. I'm not doubting your claim, it would just be interesting.

Despite liberal capitalism's dogma that everyone has a choice and is on a level playing field...We are not.

It's a lot more level than bleeding-heart socialists make it out to be. There is always opportunity to improve yourself.

There are disadvantaged. There are mentally ill and others who are not capable of holding down a job in an economically sound city.

Agreed. There are also lazy *******s with "poor me" attitudes.

It's not about you giving up that $5 dollars so you won't have that extra foamy cafe latte at Starbucks tomorrow.

Much better if that goes to crack instead?

It's about realizing that there is a social problem that WE as a society have ignored for far too long given how economically sound we are. After understanding that it is about making real efforts to correct some fundamental human wrongs that continue to take place.

Again, apart from mental illness and whatnot, you can't expect other people to help you if you won't help yourself. Hard work and a positive attitude goes a long way in rectifying bad situations.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by rubecube

These are not the people I'm talking about. I'm talking about the people (like the guy I saw last night) who ask for $2 for food and then you see them buying crack two minutes later.

Those are among the people that I feel the most sorry for. Crack is incredibly addictive and one of the toughest drugs to get out of oncey ou start. Maybe they made the choice to try it, but dear lord, they are living a hell now that few of us likely know.

Originally Posted by rubecube

Agreed. There are also lazy *******s with "poor me" attitudes.

And there are also folks that are the working poor. That have jobs, but can't come up with the first and last months rent+damage deposit to get into a residence. The "lazy poor" make up a small percentage of the homeless population.

Originally Posted by rubecube

Again, apart from mental illness and whatnot, you can't expect other people to help you if you won't help yourself. Hard work and a positive attitude goes a long way in rectifying bad situations.

Its just that easy eh?

Sorry not at all. The problems facing homeless people are much more complex than just "pullin' up your boot straps and gettin' to work" with a "can-do attitude". Those are just words but if it was that easy, then why isn't it happening? Surely these people aren't happy are they?

The line between having the lives most of us enjoy and ending up on the streets is in my opinion much thinner than we all like to think it is.

[WCE]

The thin line you talk about Jiri is one that is manipulated not only by our own actions (rubecube) but also by circumstance and contingencies.

They not only colour and manipulate global history in profound ways, but also our own personal history and evolving life stories.

That is a point that should never be lost; the black and white world does not exist in reality, only in myth and memory.

[Reggie Dunlop]

I don't blame the shop owner one bit.

Yeah, homelessness is a big social issue but you can't put the weight of that problem on the shoulders of he and others like him.

Pollution is a big issue. Cancer is a big issue. There's an huge asteroid hurtling towards earth.

Feller's just tryin' to run a business and provide for himself and his family.

[moon]

Originally Posted by WCE

How many millions walk by the homeless in our major cities without making eye contact and breaking on by?

How many give it a second thought before they plan out what they are going to order at Starbucks come lunchtime?

The sheer visible number of homeless shows that the "many many programs, agencies and chartities" either aren't numerous enough or they aren't effective.



I am more and more disheartened by the indifference people are willing to show toward the disadvantaged...But this comment goes beyond that.

Don't want to be helped?

**** me.

Who wants to have to deficate in an alley? Wants to sleep outside in the cold and rain? Wants to...

It goes on and on.

Perhaps the ways we have been trying to solve the problem are the issue? Rat intested social housing dumps? Degrading and dehumanizing clean-up programs?

Do you have any idea how many of these people who "don't want to be helped" have crippling mental diseases? Addicitions?

Do you not think that the closing down of hospitals that used to treats these people isn't critically responsible for the influx?


Which takes precedence?

SO now I have to feel bad if I go out for lunch? Even if I donate money to charity organizations all the time to help both homeless and mentally ill? Do I need to be living n the streets donating my money to help them before it satifies you? I have to tell you, I do hardly think about the homeless when making my orders at Starbucks and I don't feel bad about it at all.

The mentally ill are some of the people that I am talking about when I say "people that don't want help." We can create all the programs, hand-outs etc we want but if these people are unable or unwilling to use what good are they? We can continually throw money and time but if they are not going to change their ways or cannot change their ways at which point to we say we may not be able to end homeless but we can control the negative effects on the public?

I feel bad for those who hae mental illness and therefore are unable to get off the streets. I feel bad for those that are working poor and can't get housing, although I do think that there are plenty of options for them. They are not always perfect,but as the saying goes "Beggars can't be choosers."

When it comes down to this story you say that many people don't choose to be homeless and live like they do. Well the store owner did not choose for them to be homeless either so why should he have to suffer the consequences for their actions as well?

[Dion]

Originally Posted by rubecube

On a sidenote, I wouldn't mind seing some statistics on how many homeless people have a legitimate mental illness. I'm not doubting your claim, it would just be interesting.

Here's some stats for you:

http://www.mooddisorderscanada.ca/housing/index.htm

It is estimated that 1/3 of the homeless population suffers from some form of mental illness. This number increases to 75% for homeless single women.

Homelessness is not considered a major cause of mental illness but does increase its' duration and severity.

Two thirds of the homeless will have a lifetime experience with mental illness, three times higher than the general population.

75% of homeless people with mental illness will also have a substance abuse problem.

Correctional facilities are increasingly becoming ‘home’ to people with serious mental illness who are more likely to be detected and arrested and incarcerated for non-violent and nuisance offences. There is widespread agreement that people with mental disorders are increasingly and often unintentionally, caught in the justice systemi,

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Sorry not at all. The problems facing homeless people are much more complex than just "pullin' up your boot straps and gettin' to work" with a "can-do attitude". Those are just words but if it was that easy, then why isn't it happening? Surely these people aren't happy are they?

The line between having the lives most of us enjoy and ending up on the streets is in my opinion much thinner than we all like to think it is.

I think the biggest problem is that for an individual who is homeless, the task of getting himself out of the situation seems to be enourmous, so it's too tough to try. As opposed to trying the small steps that are required to get themselves out. I've seen ads on buses that mention that there is some gov't organization that will give people a 0% interest loan towards their first month's rent and security deposit. There are still places for rent in this city that you can get into for $700 or less for your first month's rent and security deposit. (I found 19 on http://www.lowcostrent.org/ )

That's for the working poor. But what if you are unemployed and on the street? Well, you need a job. How do you get one without an address or a phone? You go into Social Services, tell them you are trying to find a job, and you need $50 to get a pre-paid cell phone so employers can call you. Also ask Social Services to help you do up your resume, and to print off a whack of copies for you. Give those out to temp agencies. Ask Social Services to give you a clothing voucher to get some decent work clothes.

All I'm saying is that it can be done; and we have agencies that we all pay for to help these people. If you walk into Social Services with a plan, or at the very least a serious desire; they can help you. But a person has to decide they want to take that first step. And that can be difficult, because people tend to fixate on end goals rather than individual steps. And perhaps seeing as the people being sued in the article haven't gone about getting the help that is available, the shop owner; while his motives are likely self serving, may actually be pushing these people to take that first step in finding help.

[return to the red]

Originally Posted by Dion

Here's some stats for you:

http://www.mooddisorderscanada.ca/housing/index.htm

Astonishing numbers but the one VERY important thing they forgot to mention is what they classify as a mental Illness.

When most of us think of a mental illness we usually think psychotic or some other major mental illness but infact, depression is concidered a mental illness itself.
I have no sympathy for those depressed, hardluck, stuck in a rut people that just don't try to get out of it themselves.

Like Ken is saying, there IS help there for people but people have to choose to use it