What “save the season” trade would you like?

[jonkaupp]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

I get that it has been an extremely rough 30 years but in Treliving’s 5 we have had our only other series victory since 2004 and 1989 as well as the best regular season in 30 years. Maybe it is because Feaster and Sutter were so bad (I became a hardcore fan in 2004) I have a lot more rope for Treliving. He traded 3 draft picks for a top young Dman and then still pulled 3 NHL players out of the same draft.

I am a fan of the contracts he got for Brodie, Giordano, Gaudreau, Monahan, Hamilton, Lindholm, Hanifin

There are some errors but in the last 15 years this team has by far the most drafted players, along with an impressive young stable of Dmen and some very talented forwards. He certainly is not perfect but I am still a believer that he should be steering the ship.

Generally a fan of all his RFA contracts, save the Hanifin one which I think is still very much to be determined. Also not a fan of the Tkachuk deal but his hands were tied by the salary cap.... and uh I think we know whose to blame for that. Also not going to give him much of any credit for the playoff round win. Was his first year and his finger prints were hardly on that team, and lets be honest a lot of that was a fluke. Almost every metric said we shouldn’t be there and the follow up to that year kinda proved that. If anything that year set us back long term because I think it is what gave him the false confidence in this team that led to so many of the impatient ‘win now’ trades. Also don’t love comparing to previous regimes, I prefer to compare to his contemporaries. What I see is a team that had good pieces to build around but due to impatience it is now faced with a major cap problem with a pretty poor prospect base due to trading away too many futures, much like the Sutter years. I actually think the first 5 years of Sutter were much better than our first 5 with Brad now that I look at it, we at least made the playoffs every year. Guess we’ll see what the next few bring.

[RedHawk12]

I support what Treliving has done with this team and still think he's the right guy for the job.

He's made mistakes like Brouwer, Neal, trading Neal for Lucic and overpaying for Hamonic, but overall I think he's made this team one of the best and deepest groups we've had in about 20 years or so.

If I were him, I would send Gaudreau home to Philly for Konecny and Sanheim. I think it does Gaudreau a favor and allows us to drive the offense through someone else, maybe Tkachuk. I just don't think we can win the big games with Johnny as the main offensive catalyst - I think he's just too small and timid of a player, as gifted offensively as he is.

I would then trade Brodie, Hamonic and Frolik for picks at the deadline. I'd also explore trading guys like Jankowski and Bennett IF we can get a good return. Otherwise keep them for depth.

I'd then hope to draft someone in the top 10 this year and hope he turns into our next main offensive catalyst along with Tkachuk. Obviously this is somewhat out of anyone's control. It's a combination of good scouting and luck. If we win the lottery and draft Lafrenierre that would be a miracle. Or if we can get a Byfield or Raymond that would be great too.

I think trading Johnny allows Tkachuk to truly take over the reins on our offense. The next step is to get a bit lucky and draft a true #1 centre with either our pick or one of the picks we acquire. Then with other top six depth that includes Monahan, Lindholm and Konecny and bottom six depth including Backlund, Mangiapane and Bennett, I think we will be in good shape.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by TheSquatch

So I mean, okay, but... Peters had all summer to cook up a new game plan, and absolutely no one here or anywhere else can identify it, has seen a sniff of it, and the Flames got absolutely smacked by the Avs in game 1, as though no time had passed. He clearly didn't offer a solution that the players could avail themselves of.

I still see a team that is massively un-confident and not following a game plan. A coaching staff doesn't teach two defenseman to pinch at the same time without cover. They don't teach Michael Stone to creep up high in the slot when his defence partner followed his assignment high in the zone.

If the Flames repeated a lot of the same structure and it wasn't working you could argue the structure is wrong. In my eye, I see a team that loses the structure too often.

It's a player issue to me.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

I’m not in agreement on the firing aspect of it. I think Tree is a good GM, but definitely not perfect - but who is? . I think in the early years he was pressured by management one way or the other, and that had an impact. I think the man is on one hell of a cold streak though that he needs to snap out of and moving forward he needs to be careful to ensure he doesn’t fall in love with his own players.

Consistently firing management puts the organization in a constant state of chaos with no path forward.

I'm not for firing Treliving either.

Most of us could see a pretty good team emerging, and are as surprised as he likely is that things came apart in the playoffs to the degree it did, and the fact that it still lingered.

His roster construction was fine. He built out a solid blueline, drafted well, and had four forwards in the elite category.

It's not working because some of the key players seem to be weak mentally, which then puts it to him or not depending on how much you want to blame a GM for gambling on players that can't play up to their abilities.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by jonkaupp

Generally a fan of all his RFA contracts, save the Hanifin one which I think is still very much to be determined. Also not a fan of the Tkachuk deal but his hands were tied by the salary cap.... and uh I think we know whose to blame for that. Also not going to give him much of any credit for the playoff round win. Was his first year and his finger prints were hardly on that team, and lets be honest a lot of that was a fluke. Almost every metric said we shouldn’t be there and the follow up to that year kinda proved that. If anything that year set us back long term because I think it is what gave him the false confidence in this team that led to so many of the impatient ‘win now’ trades. Also don’t love comparing to previous regimes, I prefer to compare to his contemporaries. What I see is a team that had good pieces to build around but due to impatience it is now faced with a major cap problem with a pretty poor prospect base due to trading away too many futures, much like the Sutter years. I actually think the first 5 years of Sutter were much better than our first 5 with Brad now that I look at it, we at least made the playoffs every year. Guess we’ll see what the next few bring.

I certainly agree there have been mistakes, and we agree on many of them.

But if I own a team I look at the uncertainty of the replacement and whether that person is bound to do a better job or not. You want him gone, and that's fine, you are welcome to that opinion.

But when I look at his trades, his RFA signings, and the jump in draft success I see a guy that has done more right then wrong. Add in the process driven thinking angle from the guy and I'd be banking that he is more likely than others to learn from the mistakes he's made.

But as you say it's a results business, and everyone gets to make that call for themselves..

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Hamonic trade was perfectly fine. Market value for a solid dman who plays a style we were completely lacking at the time.
Elliott trade was fine
Lazar trade was a fine gamble too imo, 2nd round draft picks are as much of a gamble as trying to rehabilitate a rushed 1st rounder.

If you wanna criticize Treliving his 3 worst moves have been Raymond, Brouwer and Neal. Brouwer and Neal are costing us, Neal in particular.

Treliving is a good GM who’s good moves far outweigh the bad. It’s a pity they made the offer to Neal and that he was such a piece of total crap for us.

The organization is in great shape in terms of assets. Fantastic shape I’d say. Some cap issues although a few of those disappear after this season.

This is not a team in need of a rebuild. Another Hamilton type trade involving Gaudreau may be needed to shake the core up.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Hamonic trade was perfectly fine. Market value for a solid dman who plays a style we were completely lacking at the time.

Flames overpaid. That was way too much for a middle pair defenseman. Not when you think about what we had in the system at the time. I like Hamonic and the warrior mentality he brings to the table, a but a 1st and two 2nds? Too much. Travis Hamonic is the type of defenseman you can get in the 2nd round.

Elliott trade was fine

I think we paid too much on this one as well, but the Flames really needed a proven goaltender and Elliott was a guy that just made sense. It unfortunately didn't workout.

Lazar trade was a fine gamble too imo, 2nd round draft picks are as much of a gamble as trying to rehabilitate a rushed 1st rounder.

Nope. We overpaid. Lazar showed nothing of being a full time NHL player in the Ottawa system and wasn't trending upward in any shape or form. A 4th was probably what we should have paid. Given his "pedigree" I would have maybe coughed up a 3rd, but that would have required a lot of arm twisting and a massive sell job.

If you wanna criticize Treliving his 3 worst moves have been Raymond, Brouwer and Neal. Brouwer and Neal are costing us, Neal in particular.

Yeah, our pro scouts have not helped us when it comes to signing free agents. Ugly stuff and an areas Treliving needs to make some immediate improvements.

Treliving is a good GM who’s good moves far outweigh the bad. It’s a pity they made the offer to Neal and that he was such a piece of total crap for us.

Treliving has had middling results. The most important result is going somewhere in the post-season, and he's failed. Last year when it looked like the team needed a pick-me-up heading into the post-season he kind of #### the bed and got nothing done. That really said something about him IMO. Great in the off-season when everyone is inclined to deal, but not very good at getting deals done when the competition is most fierce.

The organization is in great shape in terms of assets. Fantastic shape I’d say. Some cap issues although a few of those disappear after this season.

Not even remotely close to great shape. This is an organization that is bereft of top prospects. He gave away 1sts and 2nds like they were candy to make deals happen, and it has dramatically hurt the organization. Our prospect base is horrible and worthy of the 31st ranking it garnered over the summer. To make matters worse there is nothing on the roster that could potentially get us a top end talent without carving a similar hole on the roster. You need to make a deal from organizational strength, and this organization is as thin as they come. There is not a single player in the minors that is beating down the door to the point where you can make a deal of a player of consequence. This is an organization that is hanging on and an injury to a top player from being a lottery team, and I don't mean a minimal-odds-just-missed-the-playoffs type team. This is a team that cannot afford to give up any draft picks, doesn't have the depth in the minors to back fill a position on the big club, and has holes in major places. Not in great shape at all.

This is not a team in need of a rebuild. Another Hamilton type trade involving Gaudreau may be needed to shake the core up.

Except you're not acknowledging the depth the Flames also gave up in that Hamilton trade. That was a three assets to get two trade, and Calgary gave away the best asset of the bunch. So exactly what goes along with Gaudreau to get a deal of that magnitude done? We don't have a Micheal Ferland to add to the deal. We don't have the depth in the minors to deal away one of our top defensive prospects. This is a team that also doesn't have the cap space to make a deal like you're suggesting. With Lucic eating up $5.25M in salary this is a team that is going to be hamstrung to make a deal. So that means you pretty much have to deal away Gaudreau, Backlund, and Kylington (equivalent value to the Hamilton package and the requisite cap space moved) to get two assets that might help out. Based on the lack of depth in the organization, that is a deal that hurts more than it helps as there is no Backlund or Kylington waiting in the wings. If we had those players in the minors, then yes, pull the trigger and hope. Unfortunately the lack of depth in the minors means the deal is too damaging to the roster to make.

[Willi Plett]

Speaking of rushed first rounders, the trade I'd like to see is one that brings Puljujarvi before the deadline to sign him.

After his surgery and having gotten out of stinkville, he has found his game in Liiga. Big body, check. Right wing, check. Good skater, check. His numbers in Europe suggest a 20 goal NHL winger or better.

The no goods are playing well. Which means they don’t need a “now” player. This also means they can wait to trade at the draft. Maybe the right picks and a bit of depth or a prospect gets it done now.

I wouldn’t want to give this years first but maybe two seconds gets it done. If it had to be a first then 2021. I have to be honest, not sure what the pick(s) are that are asked in this one. Seems like a good opportunity to bring in a top six winger on a reasonable contract without giving up a top player.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by New Era

Not even remotely close to great shape. This is an organization that is bereft of top prospects. He gave away 1sts and 2nds like they were candy to make deals happen, and it has dramatically hurt the organization. Our prospect base is horrible and worthy of the 31st ranking it garnered over the summer. To make matters worse there is nothing on the roster that could potentially get us a top end talent without carving a similar hole on the roster. You need to make a deal from organizational strength, and this organization is as thin as they come. There is not a single player in the minors that is beating down the door to the point where you can make a deal of a player of consequence. This is an organization that is hanging on and an injury to a top player from being a lottery team, and I don't mean a minimal-odds-just-missed-the-playoffs type team. This is a team that cannot afford to give up any draft picks, doesn't have the depth in the minors to back fill a position on the big club, and has holes in major places. Not in great shape at all.

That 31st ranking took Valimaki, Mangiapane and Kylington out of the mix ... and even Pronman in talking to me admitted that the line he drew hurt the Flames more than others.

The Flames have graduated a lot of prospects of late and that can't be ignored on a largely young roster.

9 guys on the roster now and 8 I see as fairly important going forward are 25 and under, which is why this is a retool from the top more than a rebuild or a face plant for the franchise or a firing offence.

Ironically the core guys that have struggled to be who they are the most are core pieces he inherited.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Willi Plett

Speaking of rushed first rounders, the trade I'd like to see is one that brings Puljujarvi before the deadline to sign him.

After his surgery and having gotten out of stinkville, he has found his game in Liiga. Big body, check. Right wing, check. Good skater, check. His numbers in Europe suggest a 20 goal NHL winger or better.

The no goods are playing well. Which means they don’t need a “now” player. This also means they can wait to trade at the draft. Maybe the right picks and a bit of depth or a prospect gets it done now.

That's a tier II league though ... buyer beware if you're just looking at stats. Possible he's playing well, but I'd want boots on the ground seeing the game coming more than just scoring stats.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Couldn’t disagree more about assets. Flames are extremely asset rich. You seem to think assets = picks and prospects. But young proven NHLers are also valuable assets and that’s where the Flames shine.

High value assets include: Gio, Hamonic, Brodie, Gaudreau, Monahan, Tkachuk, Lindholm, Hanifin, Andersson, Valimaki, Dube, Rittich

Flames are swimming in high value assets compared to any time in the past 20 years. I’m not sure how a long term Flames fan like yourself can conclude anything but that. This is literally the most asset rich they’ve ever been in my time of following them. We have 4 star forwards, a wealth of current and future top 4 dmen.

This focus on assets being depth in the minors is completely misguided. I’ll take what the Flames have on their roster over shiny prospects that dont pan out 2/3 the time.

[Willi Plett]

Originally Posted by Bingo

That's a tier II league though ... buyer beware if you're just looking at stats. Possible he's playing well, but I'd want boots on the ground seeing the game coming more than just scoring stats.

Certainly true. The snippets I read from coaches and/or scouts/media indicate the play supports the stats but of course we can’t say. That league does project well to NHL though.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I'm not for firing Treliving either.

Most of us could see a pretty good team emerging, and are as surprised as he likely is that things came apart in the playoffs to the degree it did, and the fact that it still lingered.

His roster construction was fine. He built out a solid blueline, drafted well, and had four forwards in the elite category.

It's not working because some of the key players seem to be weak mentally, which then puts it to him or not depending on how much you want to blame a GM for gambling on players that can't play up to their abilities.

I think the biggest error was in having Backlund slotted as a #2 centre, and I think Tree sees that as well given the Kadri trade. Centre depth is too important for it to be weak at the top, and ours is.

Backlund getting as destroyed as he did in the playoffs, and his struggles this year hammer that nail home for me. He’s now no longer a 2nd line centre on a good team.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Bingo

That 31st ranking took Valimaki, Mangiapane and Kylington out of the mix ... and even Pronman in talking to me admitted that the line he drew hurt the Flames more than others.

Aren't they out of the mix? They aren't on the farm available for call up or to back fill other players, so I call that promoted.

The Flames have graduated a lot of prospects of late and that can't be ignored on a largely young roster.

And that's irrelevant to the discussion of organizational depth. We HAD organizational depth, but we promoted or traded it away. It's what we have right now, and what we have right now is brutal. There is nothing in the minors that can be called upon at any position. Not a single position has a player that you look at say we can be confident that we have a player that can contribute above the bottom line or bottom pair or be a practice goaltender. There is also not a single prospect in the system that looks like a blue chip prospect. Valimaki is the best we have, and after that knee injury the jury is out. That is the current state of the system.

9 guys on the roster now and 8 I see as fairly important going forward are 25 and under, which is why this is a retool from the top more than a rebuild or a face plant for the franchise or a firing offence.

Again, irrelevant to the discussion of whether this team is deep enough to pull off a trade where we dump multiple assets. I would love to say we could make a trade of that magnitude without creating other holes we don't have the capacity to fill, but that just isn't true. If you feel differently try putting that deal together.

Hamilton, Ferland, Fox for Lindholm and Hanafin.

Who are the assets on the Flames' side of that equation right now?

Ironically the core guys that have struggled to be who they are the most are core pieces he inherited.

Agree there. The core pieces are the ones not getting it done at the moment. They need to turn it around because there is no trade coming that will not hurt the organization more than it helps.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

I think the biggest error was in having Backlund slotted as a #2 centre, and I think Tree sees that as well given the Kadri trade. Centre depth is too important for it to be weak at the top, and ours is.

Backlund getting as destroyed as he did in the playoffs, and his struggles this year hammer that nail home for me. He’s now no longer a 2nd line centre on a good team.

Not to mention Jankowski hitting a wall.

I just don't get that kid at all. If you're not scoring and you're 6'5" start being harder to play against and you'll get more ice time.

instead he's just Casper the friendly ghost out there.

[Willi Plett]

The Flames do have good depth of young assets. Unfortunately the Valimaki injury really bit Tre in the ass as he couldn’t move a defensive asset for a forward asset. More so it exposed that the depth of D is not as great as anyone might have judged.

The other assets become difficult to move in a trade during the season for cap match reasons. I think from a trade standpoint Kilington and Dube are some of the more moveable assets but they probably don’t get you what you want.

We are all too impatient. Colorado managed to tank 2 different seasons that I recall when they were expected to perform better. This put some key assets into their organization. Their future looks pretty bright now.

Maybe an off season is exactly right now for the Flames future.

[Flash Walken]

They should put him in a cage and poke him with sticks for a few weeks.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by New Era

Aren't they out of the mix? They aren't on the farm available for call up or to back fill other players, so I call that promoted.



And that's irrelevant to the discussion of organizational depth. We HAD organizational depth, but we promoted or traded it away. It's what we have right now, and what we have right now is brutal. There is nothing in the minors that can be called upon at any position. Not a single position has a player that you look at say we can be confident that we have a player that can contribute above the bottom line or bottom pair or be a practice goaltender. There is also not a single prospect in the system that looks like a blue chip prospect. Valimaki is the best we have, and after that knee injury the jury is out. That is the current state of the system.



Again, irrelevant to the discussion of whether this team is deep enough to pull off a trade where we dump multiple assets. I would love to say we could make a trade of that magnitude without creating other holes we don't have the capacity to fill, but that just isn't true. If you feel differently try putting that deal together.

Hamilton, Ferland, Fox for Lindholm and Hanafin.

Who are the assets on the Flames' side of that equation right now?



Agree there. The core pieces are the ones not getting it done at the moment. They need to turn it around because there is no trade coming that will not hurt the organization more than it helps.

These things are only irrelevant if they are no longer here.

If you want to focus on who played for Stockton last night only, we can certainly do that, but that's far from the summary of a franchise's asset base, or young asset base.

[jonkaupp]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Not to mention Jankowski hitting a wall.

I just don't get that kid at all. If you're not scoring and you're 6'5" start being harder to play against and you'll get more ice time.

instead he's just Casper the friendly ghost out there.

Yes but there’s plenty of us that said he should get Jankowski moved while he had value. Same as Bennett. Treliving is poor at knowing when to cut his losses on a player until it is too late.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Couldn’t disagree more about assets. Flames are extremely asset rich. You seem to think assets = picks and prospects. But young proven NHLers are also valuable assets and that’s where the Flames shine.

High value assets include: Gio, Hamonic, Brodie, Gaudreau, Monahan, Tkachuk, Lindholm, Hanifin, Andersson, Valimaki, Dube, Rittich

Flames are swimming in high value assets compared to any time in the past 20 years. I’m not sure how a long term Flames fan like yourself can conclude anything but that. This is literally the most asset rich they’ve ever been in my time of following them. We have 4 star forwards, a wealth of current and future top 4 dmen.

This focus on assets being depth in the minors is completely misguided. I’ll take what the Flames have on their roster over shiny prospects that dont pan out 2/3 the time.

In your model high value assets=good players. That is reasonable but I’m not quite so convinced the Flames are as deep in great players as you believe. I hope you’re right and the return for some of those guys will exceed my expectations but I think you’re overly optimistic (Stone never did get us that 2nd round pick nor are we swimming in cap space as predicted).

It comes down to results and I certainly hope the optimistic posters are right and the Flames results will start reflecting their views of the good work the GM has done.