What “save the season” trade would you like?

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

No, it's not my entire summary. I've summarized it previously.

Here's part of your reply to that summary:



So, using your post, it's 13 goals to 0 at this point.

My broader point that you're excluding is that's all he does. So he had better score some goals or he'll be a net negative contributor.

So far this year he's been net negative anyway, so he's not scoring enough to pull himself out of the weeds. That's amazing frankly.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Saqe

I'd say that Lucic at this point is a fourth line grinder, nothing more. He should be paid about league minimum. Guys who have zero production generally don't get more than that.

Reeves makes over a million has more goals but less points thus far. I would be happy with Lucic at 1-1.5

[jonkaupp]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Neal hasn't scored a meaningful goal since the first week....he has a couple goals since in blow outs. To suggest he is the reason they are doing better is ridiculous. I wouldn't have made the trade but no need to try and make it sound worse than it actually is.

You are right, regardless of whether you like or hate the Lucic/Neal trade all the debate does is take away from the real issue which was the Neal signing, such a bad move that it should cost the person who made it his job and not an extension.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Bingo

They're only paying Lucic $4.75M a season, plus they get $0.75 covered by the Oilers so out of pocket is $4M per season.

Neal at $5.75 covered 50% is $2.9M per season. So you'd have to replace the guy with a $1.1 player to make your point.

But to be honest I think Treliving's UFA gaffs have them just not wanting to pay guys not to play for the team anymore. If that assumption is true, they may have set a retention level at say 25% and no more.

Hows that?

He has a 6 mil per year deal of which the Oilers pay 750K. That leaves 5.25 to be paid out by the Flames...no?

Regardless and to the rest of your post, Im sorry but that is pure speculation on your part but even if its accurate, again the owners should not give a hoot where the money goes that has to be spent anyhow. And again, if they are dictating what players get their money, then the team is hooped in more ways than one.

[jonkaupp]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Hows that?

He has a 6 mil per year deal of which the Oilers pay 750K. That leaves 5.25 to be paid out by the Flames...no?

Regardless and to the rest of your post, Im sorry but that is pure speculation on your part but even if its accurate, again the owners should not give a hoot where the money goes that has to be spent anyhow. And again, if they are dictating what players get their money, then the team is hooped in more ways than one.

Agree. Bad culture, filters down through rest of organization. The real reason this team is always stuck in the mud.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Hows that?

He has a 6 mil per year deal of which the Oilers pay 750K. That leaves 5.25 to be paid out by the Flames...no?

Regardless and to the rest of your post, Im sorry but that is pure speculation on your part but even if its accurate, again the owners should not give a hoot where the money goes that has to be spent anyhow. And again, if they are dictating what players get their money, then the team is hooped in more ways than one.

His deal was front loaded with bonus money. My totals are the actual dollars left to pay the guy.

You certainly don't have to agree with my speculation, and I basically called it that myself. But it's not out of question given the Treliving hint that he couldn't buy Neal out, and that the Flames made a deal to save real dollars.

[zamler]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Just let it go man.

Agreed, no more posts in this thread about Neal. Let it go man.

[Parallex]

Do "save the season" trades ever work? I can't think of a trade characterized as "save the season" ever doing anything except causing future headaches.

... so yeah. I'd like to see zero save the season trades. And if they're going to insist on shooting themselves in the foot by trying one then it should be Monahan.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Regardless and to the rest of your post, Im sorry but that is pure speculation on your part but even if its accurate, again the owners should not give a hoot where the money goes that has to be spent anyhow. And again, if they are dictating what players get their money, then the team is hooped in more ways than one.

[Psytic]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Nope, he is director of amateur scouting.

I think the amateur scouting has been really good actually, but they always seem limited in how many selections they have, particularly in the higher rounds, which limits how many guys he can produce.

Alright I stand corrected my apologies to Button. Looking at the Flames website we only have two pro scouts???? maybe that is the issue right there doesn't seem like a lot for evaluating trades and players to target for the GM to work with.

[Love]

I would like to keep Brodie, but a high pick for Hamonic id the move right now. A midround pick for Fro would be a dream also

[Saqe]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Reeves makes over a million has more goals but less points thus far. I would be happy with Lucic at 1-1.5

Sure around 1 million but goals are more valuable. Good fourth liners will give you around 10 goals per season and that 1-1.5 is fair.

[jonkaupp]

Originally Posted by Psytic

Alright I stand corrected my apologies to Button. Looking at the Flames website we only have two pro scouts???? maybe that is the issue right there doesn't seem like a lot for evaluating trades and players to target for the GM to work with.

the bengals also only have two scouts listed on their website. holy #### i was more spot on than I thought with that comparison

[mrdonkey]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Disagree with me all you want, but don't be a dick about it.



Obfuscate - render obscure, unclear, or unintelligible



James Neal is a terrible five on five hockey player. We saw that all season, it was the eye test. He's repeating that this year.



We can argue all day about eye tests, but luckily some independent people have built models that track contributing factors to hockey players that can actually summarize what we are seeing.



Neal's data supports the eye test. That's not obscure, unclear or unintelligible. The fact that he's been so bad that he's actually considered a net negative player despite scoring 13 goals is hilarious.



If you're look at hockey is as deep as looking up goal totals in the stats page, that's on you.

I’m not trying to be a dick, but as someone who has worked in the numbers biz for a long time, I do have to call baloney when I see it. Stats are fine as an explanatory tool for natural observations, but they shouldn’t be used as a way to redirect away from those observations when they don’t suit you, which is a drum I see you beating any time this topic comes up.

What we can agree on is that both players look bad from the eye test... But one is contributing and the other is not. You can argue that Neal may well be a net negative 5 on 5 whereas Lucic is just treading water. I’m fine with that, and then it becomes a question of the degree of badness being in favour of one or the other. But that conclusion has to be stipulated against the fact that he is finding a way to help his team in other ways, whereas Lucic is not. These are basic facts that no amount of statistical wand-waving can change. How is that being a dick?

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Saqe

Sure around 1 million but goals are more valuable. Good fourth liners will give you around 10 goals per season and that 1-1.5 is fair.

He has created a few goals with screens, face off wins, board play...he also gets a bump from me for being the biggest guy in the league. Hope we get to see him in a playoff series. If he was UFA I would give him a mil for next season.

[Teroy]

I’m sure that Treliving is doing all in his power to upgrade the team with a trade. That seems to be a real problem given the cap issue and tradeable talent. However, I think we need to blow this team up. It will not win a championship. If they get their poop together, we’ll just end up with a mediocre draft pick. Frolik and Backlund are not the problem. They may not be playing on the correct line but they’re not the problem. Monahan is not the problem. He does everything that you require a centre to do. Lucic is a huge improvement over a useless Neil. I could care less that Neil is scoring in Edmonton. His contribution here was a direct reflection on his lack of effort or team play. We need to resign Brodie and Hamonic or move them before they become UFA. Move them for whatever we can get before they leave. Jankowski and Stone need to go. Gaudrea and Giordano need to be moved before their value is gone. Bite the bullet and assemble the players who we think will be the future: Dube, Mangiapane, Valimaki, Czarnik, Kylinton, Quine, Davidson and Phillips. At least they’ll be interesting and exciting to watch. Stop expecting Bennett to score a 100 points. Accept him for what he is; a feisty player who creates havoc and make the opposition pay attention. Above all, find a Captain.

[jonkaupp]

Originally Posted by dino7c

He has created a few goals with screens, face off wins, board play...he also gets a bump from me for being the biggest guy in the league. Hope we get to see him in a playoff series. If he was UFA I would give him a mil for next season.

Lol. Hes not the ‘biggest guy in the league’ but even if he was and that’s your reasoning why you want him on your team...lmao

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by jonkaupp

You are right, regardless of whether you like or hate the Lucic/Neal trade all the debate does is take away from the real issue which was the Neal signing, such a bad move that it should cost the person who made it his job and not an extension.

The really painful what-if from that summer is the Flames had a deal with Reaves first - a deal that would have made it unlikely they could sign Neal too. Reaves figured he was on his way to Calgary, but Vegas matched. Then Treliving, with that cap space burning a hole in his pocket, signed Neal.

I like Lucic. But Reaves + $2.5 mil cap space >>> Lucic.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by jonkaupp

Lol. Hes not the ‘biggest guy in the league’ but even if he was and that’s your reasoning why you want him on your team...lmao

Who is? and that was one of the reasons plus I said 1-1.5M

Lol lmao...what are you 12? Good debate skillz

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by zamler

Agreed, no more posts in this thread about Neal. Let it go man.

I was hoping you agreed with the notion that you shouldn't have to insult those that disagree with you to make your point.

Maybe work on that.