Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community
Old 11-19-2019, 06:13 PM   #61
dino7c
Franchise Player
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Weitz View Post
What do you pay at the various chargers that are around these days to charge your car?
Also wondering this, and if it takes 30 mins to charge can you imagine the lineups...that also needs to come down obviously.

It takes 5 mins to pump gas and things get backed up at gas stations
__________________
#MakeTheFlamesGreatAgain
dino7c is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2019, 06:34 PM   #62
You Need a Thneed
Voted for Kodos
 
You Need a Thneed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dino7c View Post
Also wondering this, and if it takes 30 mins to charge can you imagine the lineups...that also needs to come down obviously.

It takes 5 mins to pump gas and things get backed up at gas stations
30 min to charge vs 5, but again, most people would be doing most of their charging at home. So the demand on charging stations isnít as high as a typical gas station.
__________________
My LinkedIn Profile.
You Need a Thneed is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to You Need a Thneed For This Useful Post:
Old 11-19-2019, 07:08 PM   #63
zamler
Franchise Player
 
zamler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoubleF View Post
I feel like the first step is to really push more powerful hybrids than pure EVs. Something like an 80/20 EV/Gasoline situation where you get the power of the pure performance EV like a Tesla, but then a 1.5 ish litre engine that kinda helps to propel the vehicle, but in general is much more used as a gas generator to power/recharge the EV? I mean, the tanks obviously don't have to be as large if it's just a basic gas generator, right? And then the power generated would be what is necessary for extending the basic 300km distance, right?
Chevy tried a variation of this with the Volt it didn't sell well and got cancelled.
zamler is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2019, 07:19 PM   #64
bossy22
Powerplay Quarterback
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dino7c View Post
Also wondering this, and if it takes 30 mins to charge can you imagine the lineups...that also needs to come down obviously.

It takes 5 mins to pump gas and things get backed up at gas stations

Superchargers are free. Most other chargers are free like the malls and hotels, although you are probably staying in the hotel. The Banff springs gives you free valet parking in their EV spots. There are some that you have to pay for, like the one in Bowness. It's $2/hr.

In 3.5 years of ownership, we've only used the supercharger 3 times. We charge the car at home while we sleep. Most people will rarely ever need to worry about it. You get 300-500km/day depending on your car and how much you charge it up.
bossy22 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2019, 07:22 PM   #65
Winsor_Pilates
Franchise Player
 
Winsor_Pilates's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Van City - Main St.
Exp:
Default

The Porsche Taycan is the first EV to get me excited. Tesla's are great I'm sure, but I find them pretty boring.
Depending how the Taycan is for price, space, specs when it's out, I'd definitely consider going EV on my next car.
Winsor_Pilates is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2019, 07:25 PM   #66
zamler
Franchise Player
 
zamler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Exp:
Default

Taycan will start at $200,000 CAD.
zamler is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-19-2019, 07:50 PM   #67
dino7c
Franchise Player
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed View Post
30 min to charge vs 5, but again, most people would be doing most of their charging at home. So the demand on charging stations isnít as high as a typical gas station.
I was thinking more on a road trip...like the only charging station on the Trans Canada somewhere between major centers
__________________
#MakeTheFlamesGreatAgain
dino7c is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2019, 12:18 AM   #68
DoubleF
First Line Centre
 
DoubleF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by zamler View Post
Chevy tried a variation of this with the Volt it didn't sell well and got cancelled.
The Volt isn't really a powerful EV hybrid though. Even many performance cars with hybrid options out there are more 80/20 gasoline than the concept of a 80/20 EV/Gas design.
DoubleF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2019, 01:22 AM   #69
zamler
Franchise Player
 
zamler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoubleF View Post
The Volt isn't really a powerful EV hybrid though. Even many performance cars with hybrid options out there are more 80/20 gasoline than the concept of a 80/20 EV/Gas design.
80/20 will make a very heavy vehicle and hurt efficiency/performance. And it will be expensive you'll have a large battery and the gas engine with all the weight and complexity to go with it. And cargo space will be poor since you'll have a big battery and normal sized fuel tank.
zamler is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2019, 02:00 AM   #70
curves2000
Scoring Winger
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Calgary, Canada
Exp:
Default

I think that EV's will be a bigger part of the future, not as quick as some people think. The adoption has been generally slower for a lot of "green" cars and trucks than people want to admit.

Hybrid's have been available since 1997 (Toyota) and 1999 (Honda) yet few people know someone who owns one. EV's are also coming slowly and as the technology improves and some of the other issues are worked out like range, cold weather performance etc, other issues with pop up.

How do you retrofit a large commercial parking lot or underground parking garage with hundreds of plug in's? Who is going to pay for that, the electricity and the added costs for upgrading the building?

Lot's of talk about all the "free charging stations" but if these become more mainstream, are we suppose to believe that there won't be significant demand for people to take advantage of "free"? What happens if your running late, haven't charged your car and plan on charging it at (insert location) and than go to another appointment/event but no space is available? Talk about anxiety.

A lot of my friends who have really really really pushed this "revolution" really haven't taken part themselves. We have been having the same conversations for years yet nothing has changed. A lot of the excuses from them are exactly what are being discussed here, the barriers to entry so to speak.

I know a lot of people want this to happen for environmental reasons and that is great, what people are losing track of is literally the billions of people who are going to be scaling up and will be looking gasoline powered transportion options in the next 20 years.

While North American's argue over climate change and EV's, rebates , carbon taxes etc.

1) China is building HUNDREDS of new airports for global air travel
2) China has abandoned their 1 child policy meaning more families who are craving North American living standards and lifestyles.

3) India will probably surpass China as the largest country within 5 years and is scaling up very quick themselves.

Numerous other examples. I know that a lot of people envision a global world filled with EV's and everything green tech, the sad reality is that billions of people don't have a proper toilet, housing, clean water or shelter. What will happen once we get them scaled up and they have aspirations for a car ownership ?

Lot's of issues to be sorted out I think
curves2000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2019, 06:58 AM   #71
ripTDR
Backup Goalie
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Exp:
Default

Thing to keep in mind as well, is governments are going to start to claw back lost revenue from gasoline taxes they normally would get for things like roads, transit etc... Could we see a time when charging your car could cost about the same as a tank of fuel?
ripTDR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2019, 07:50 AM   #72
Erick Estrada
Franchise Player
 
Erick Estrada's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: San Fernando Valley
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ripTDR View Post
Thing to keep in mind as well, is governments are going to start to claw back lost revenue from gasoline taxes they normally would get for things like roads, transit etc... Could we see a time when charging your car could cost about the same as a tank of fuel?
It's likely going to be a wash in that the money you would pay at the pumps will shift to your electric bill but going electric really isn't about saving consumers money and more about lessening pollution. This is still a lot further off than a lot of people think as The top three selling vehicles in North America by far are pickup trucks. It's not even close. Gasoline still has legs as until full size EV pickup trucks with tow capacities exist and are attainable there will be a sizeable demand in North America as there will be in heavily populated, developing countries where the infrastructure for charging stations will be very slow.
Erick Estrada is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2019, 08:52 AM   #73
edslunch
First Line Centre
 
edslunch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dino7c View Post
I was thinking more on a road trip...like the only charging station on the Trans Canada somewhere between major centers

Gas stations are crazy busy on summer weekends at Cochrane, Canmore, Golden.... Swap all those gas cars with electric and weíve got a mess. One answer is distributing chargers more widely but thatís a huge amount of infrastructure. We may see refueling move from dedicated standalone fueling stations to retail/restaurant locations that give drivers a way to kill time and businesses a way to attract captive customers.
edslunch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2019, 09:13 AM   #74
Fuzz
Franchise Player
 
Fuzz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Exp:
Default

So the current supercharger can charge at 150kW, which takes about 20 minutes for a 50% charge. Lets pretend in the future they can get that down to 50% in 5 minutes, a 4 fold increase. Lets also pretend they can do that by only doubling the power input, not quadrupling it. So that's 300kW per 5 minutes, about the time to fill a gas car. As Edslunch pointed out, the gas stations in Canmore in the summer are jammed with road trippers. There are about 40 pumps on the main strip, I'll ignore the other ones in town for this exercise. So, 40 pumps, convert that to electric, at 300kW each. That's 12 MW of power. This allows 40 vehicles per 5 minutes to get a 50% charge.

For perspective, a home with a 200A service has 48kW potential. Alberta's largest solar facility has 15MW of nameplate capacity. And this is one small town, and ignores all the RV's, semi's etc. Think of all the pumps in Golden, and other places along the TCH. Remember that I also made some big assumptions, like 4x increase in charging speed, a 2x increase in efficiency, and only a 50% charge. This will be a huge challenge of going all electric, so if you think it is coming in 10 years, and petrol is dead, you might want to re-think that. It's also why hybrids make a lot of sense over the short term.
__________________
Air Canada - We're not happy until you're not happy.
Telus - Almost as bad as Winnipeg.
Calgary Roads Dept - Ya, we'll get to that.
Fuzz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2019, 10:22 AM   #75
Sliver
PC LOAD LETTER
 
Sliver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuzz View Post
So the current supercharger can charge at 150kW, which takes about 20 minutes for a 50% charge. Lets pretend in the future they can get that down to 50% in 5 minutes, a 4 fold increase. Lets also pretend they can do that by only doubling the power input, not quadrupling it. So that's 300kW per 5 minutes, about the time to fill a gas car. As Edslunch pointed out, the gas stations in Canmore in the summer are jammed with road trippers. There are about 40 pumps on the main strip, I'll ignore the other ones in town for this exercise. So, 40 pumps, convert that to electric, at 300kW each. That's 12 MW of power. This allows 40 vehicles per 5 minutes to get a 50% charge.

For perspective, a home with a 200A service has 48kW potential. Alberta's largest solar facility has 15MW of nameplate capacity. And this is one small town, and ignores all the RV's, semi's etc. Think of all the pumps in Golden, and other places along the TCH. Remember that I also made some big assumptions, like 4x increase in charging speed, a 2x increase in efficiency, and only a 50% charge. This will be a huge challenge of going all electric, so if you think it is coming in 10 years, and petrol is dead, you might want to re-think that. It's also why hybrids make a lot of sense over the short term.
Literally nobody thinks electric will supplant gasoline in the next 10 years. The title of this thread was just click bait.

I do think this is one of those topics where you have a bunch of people telling you all the ways electric cars won't work, while the people that make them and the people that buy them are just making them work without much difficulty.

Also, you don't need charging stations all over the place in the same way you need gas stations all over the place. Every single house has its own charging station. Running 220 is a nothing. I ran it to my garage a few years ago in anticipation of either me or the next owner having an electric car at some point in the future. It cost a couple hundred bucks to make happen. People add 220 for hot tubs all the time. You can set a car to charge overnight during non-peak times. It's perfect.

Every single office, store, building, etc. has electricity already run to it for if you need a charge during the day. The energy arrives along little tiny pipelines (wires) already there. The infrastructure is already in place whereas all gas stations are an island that need a truck filled with toxic liquids cruising around to top them up on a weekly basis.

The fact that people take a road trip once a year doesn't mean electric cars won't work. Traditional gas cars and the infrastructure for gas cars isn't going to disappear overnight, so people can always drive those. If there are hours waits for charging in some places, people will open up more charging stations. Simple supply and demand. Will we need to run more electricity? Maybe. Or maybe people will store energy in batteries they've charged overnight during non-peak hours and allow people to charge their batteries off those during peak hours. Whatever happens, these will be easy problems to sort out.
Sliver is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Sliver For This Useful Post:
Old 11-20-2019, 10:47 AM   #76
Fuzz
Franchise Player
 
Fuzz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Exp:
Default

Ya, I don't think the problem is for in and around the city and home. It's as soon as you need to venture out more than 300km one way, which I why I was pointing out Canmore and Golden. The gas stations are swamped now, so I don't see why charging stations wouldn't be to the same degree, in the hypothetical world where we replace petrol with ev's. The problem is you need to build to meet peak demand, which is summer long weekends. Otherwise it will be pretty chaotic.

And yes, some people are saying we need to get off gas now, and move to electric in the next decade. I'm pointing out why that is extremely challenging.

And FWIW, I ran 200A to my garage, and wired up 2 50A circuits (cost about $300 for parts) so I'm totally ready, should I need it. Probably more difficult for the people who can't use their garages because they are full of crap.
__________________
Air Canada - We're not happy until you're not happy.
Telus - Almost as bad as Winnipeg.
Calgary Roads Dept - Ya, we'll get to that.
Fuzz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2019, 10:51 AM   #77
Scroopy Noopers
Pent-up
 
Scroopy Noopers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Ontario, unfortunately.
Exp:
Default

I don’t see what Canmore has to do with anything... it’s like 120 km from McKenzie Towne. Less than half the worst available mileage. Growing the infrastructure for electric vehicles is not going to be complicated.

Now... self drive in the winter? That’s another story. I don’t know how that will work with cameras alone.
Scroopy Noopers is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2019, 10:54 AM   #78
DoubleF
First Line Centre
 
DoubleF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by zamler View Post
80/20 will make a very heavy vehicle and hurt efficiency/performance. And it will be expensive you'll have a large battery and the gas engine with all the weight and complexity to go with it. And cargo space will be poor since you'll have a big battery and normal sized fuel tank.
Possibly. I was thinking more along the lines of something like a 1.5L (or smaller) engine in a larger vehicle and the space savings plus a little bit of cargo space used for the remainder battery motor.

I mean, even 1.5L is a bit overkill IMO as I am not intending for the engine to be performance at all. That sized engine is placed in mid sized SUVs as the economical regular driving option and I agree it's bulky. My suggestion for the engine was more along the lines of being able to allow the vehicle to use gas to hobble to a charging station + be a gas generator for electricity in the event the battery reserves are too low. I am literally imagining something like a motorcycle engine would more than suffice and the gasoline tank be something like 5-10L only.

Heck, maybe let's move away from an engine in general. Let's just connect a unit like this that essentially idles away and reduces energy usage/charges the batteries while you drive on extended trips.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/DeWALT-8...8000/307457717

This thing has a 7.5 gallon reserve which allows it to run for approximately 11 hours. Doesn't a fully depleted Tesla take around the same to fully charge? Wouldn't a unit like this (if integrated into a Tesla or equivalent for instance) technically double the distance a Tesla can cover (minus the time constraints of charging)? Let's conservatively say the generator can reduce the depletion rate by 30% while driving long distances. Isn't that adding 100KM ish range before you need to hit a supercharger station?


But yeah, I get you. If it's that easy, then I'd be rich and these things would be everywhere. I'm just saying that maybe if someone took a reasonably priced performance EV and then allowed the installation of a small gasoline generator to extend the max distance from let's say 300km to something closer to 450-500km, that might kill traditional gasoline vehicles far faster than waiting for a pure EV to hands down destroy the gasoline vehicle.
DoubleF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2019, 10:57 AM   #79
Fuzz
Franchise Player
 
Fuzz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers View Post
I donít see what Canmore has to do with anything... itís like 120 km from McKenzie Towne. Less than half the worst available mileage. Growing the infrastructure for electric vehicles is not going to be complicated.

Now... self drive in the winter? Thatís another story. I donít know how that will work with cameras alone.
Ya, I wonder about the proximity, except that Canmore gas is at least 10c/l higher than Calgary, yet the pumps are always packed, which tells me a lot of it is probably BC sourced traffic that skipped Banff, but can't make Calgary. So I think it would still be relevant to fueer UV filing patterns.


And ya, self driving in winter is a whole other challenge(or hundreds of smaller challenges).
__________________
Air Canada - We're not happy until you're not happy.
Telus - Almost as bad as Winnipeg.
Calgary Roads Dept - Ya, we'll get to that.
Fuzz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2019, 10:57 AM   #80
nfotiu
Franchise Player
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Virginia
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuzz View Post
So the current supercharger can charge at 150kW, which takes about 20 minutes for a 50% charge. Lets pretend in the future they can get that down to 50% in 5 minutes, a 4 fold increase. Lets also pretend they can do that by only doubling the power input, not quadrupling it. So that's 300kW per 5 minutes, about the time to fill a gas car. As Edslunch pointed out, the gas stations in Canmore in the summer are jammed with road trippers. There are about 40 pumps on the main strip, I'll ignore the other ones in town for this exercise. So, 40 pumps, convert that to electric, at 300kW each. That's 12 MW of power. This allows 40 vehicles per 5 minutes to get a 50% charge.

For perspective, a home with a 200A service has 48kW potential. Alberta's largest solar facility has 15MW of nameplate capacity. And this is one small town, and ignores all the RV's, semi's etc. Think of all the pumps in Golden, and other places along the TCH. Remember that I also made some big assumptions, like 4x increase in charging speed, a 2x increase in efficiency, and only a 50% charge. This will be a huge challenge of going all electric, so if you think it is coming in 10 years, and petrol is dead, you might want to re-think that. It's also why hybrids make a lot of sense over the short term.
To the last point, it seems that plug-in hybrids have already come and gone and are not that popular. There's too much downside in terms of expense, weight, maintenance, and space in building a car so it can run on gas too. A lot of the plug in hybrids have already been discontinued, and most of the new announcements are pure electric for these reasons.
nfotiu is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:25 AM.

Calgary Flames
2017-18




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright Calgarypuck 2016