Oil prices drop to under $50/barrel

[Flames in 07]

Originally Posted by Red Mile Style

Hey, thanks for posting that!

That is quite a substantial amount of money, but Alberta's economy rests *largely* on a non-renewable resource. Is this enough to sustain the province *when* the oil runs out? Plus, if I remember correctly (and it's completely possible that I am making this up) the administration of this fund is wonky. But, again, I can't really say. However that seems to be a large sum of money, and it is growing, so I do feel better about the whole situation.

I guess maybe a more diversified economy would please me. Maybe invest some of this money into other ventures that can prove to be beneficial after the economy is no longer oil-based. I just don't want to see people in the hundreds of thousands being screwed over and signing their lives over to banks without anything there for them.

Oil doesn't run out for about 150 years. A North America version of OPEC would do nothing, OPEC will still control oil prices. We have a sizable Heritage fund, Royalties structure is renowed around N America.

the Oilsands break even price of $32 above is at current labour cost levels which are outragous, at normal levels they would work at $25.

Crisis averted eh?

[Flames in 07]

Originally Posted by Red Mile Style

Okay, I solved the Alberta possible economic crisis.

It's called the National Oil Program (NOP), and basically it will nationalize the oil industry so the people can get the profits instead of big oil.

No need to thank me. It's just what I do.

Thanks for the tip ask PCan or anyone from the 70's how that worked out.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Red Mile Style

I guess maybe a more diversified economy would please me. Maybe invest some of this money into other ventures that can prove to be beneficial after the economy is no longer oil-based. I just don't want to see people in the hundreds of thousands being screwed over and signing their lives over to banks without anything there for them.

I am not sure where you live....but from some of your posts and the ideas you have about Alberta.....I would venture to guess that it is not Alberta or you are not originally from Alberta.

Alberta is very diversified.

• In 2005, Alberta’s economic productivity was higher than any other province. Total value added per hour in Alberta was 108.9% of the Canadian average. The only other province to exceed the Canadian average of 100% was Ontario with 104.2%.
• Alberta consistently has one of the best labour records of any province in Canada, in terms of fewest workdays lost due to strikes.
• Alberta’s manufacturing sector also had the highest productivity of all provinces, partly because of its highly productive chemical, machinery and food processing industries.

• Over the past ten years, Alberta has had the strongest economy in Canada, with an average real rate of growth of 3.7% per year.
• Alberta has capitalized on its strengths in agriculture, energy, forestry and industrial products to develop a dynamic and diverse economy.
• Over the past decade, the economy has experienced rapid growth in such industries as forest products, food processing, machinery, fabricated metals, as well as tourism and business services.

The total economy of Alberta that comes from Energy has dropped from 36.1% to 28.3%.

Between 1995 and 2005, Alberta's manufacturing shipments increased by 112% to $60.3 billion.
Alberta's manufacturing sector is closely tied to the resource sector. About two-thirds of manufacturing output consist of value-added resource products

The lowest overall taxes in Canada.
No provincial sales tax [the only province in Canada without one].
No general capital or payroll taxes prevalent in other provinces and U.S. states.

• A two-income family of four earning $100,000 pays about $2,340 less in total provincial taxes, including health care premiums, sales and other excise taxes, in Alberta than in Ontario and $6,152 less than in Quebec.
• Albertans are among the best educated people in North America. In 2005, 60.3% of the labour force, 25 years of age and older, reported holding a post-secondary education certificate, diploma, or university degree.
• The Alberta Heritage Foundation for Medical Research funds the highest biomedical and health research in the province. Since 1980, more than $850 million has been awarded to scientists and trainees. In 2005, the Alberta Government announced a $500 million addition to the Foundation's endowment. The additional funds allowed the Foundation to continue and enhance its programs of funding people and activities engaged in health research.

Just to name a few things.

http://www.alberta-canada.com/index.cfm

[Red Mile Style]

Originally Posted by Flames in 07

Oil doesn't run out for about 150 years. A North America version of OPEC would do nothing, OPEC will still control oil prices. We have a sizable Heritage fund, Royalties structure is renowed around N America.

the Oilsands break even price of $32 above is at current labour cost levels which are outragous, at normal levels they would work at $25.

Crisis averted eh?

Every thing you're saying here isn't fact. I have just as much proof (if not more) that we are at the oil peak right now as you have for saying it will run out in 150 years. But, at least you realize that the oil will run out, which most people just don't realize (or care).

I don't see how a North American version on OPEC CAN NOT NOT do anything. I will take the ignorant Western philosophy of if we want something, we take it. If anything I would like you to explain this point the most. I am not sure why Canadians/North Americans/Westerners allow OPEC to dictate to us what our oil is worth, but if you're happy with the amount of power foreign governments have over our markets, yay.

I'm not really sure what you mean about the royalty structure being "renowed" either... it's the lowest on the planet. The obvious place for the highest is Sweden or Norway, and even the US has higher royalties than Alberta. The Heritage Fund... if you feel confident that that will sustain Alberta, great.

[Red Mile Style]

Originally Posted by Flames in 07

Thanks for the tip ask PCan or anyone from the 70's how that worked out.

I don't know what you're talking about, I wasn't even alive in the 70's and I just thought of that yesturday.

I'm really shooting for another blue square on this one...

[Shawnski]

Originally Posted by Red Mile Style

Every thing you're saying here isn't fact.

Wow, yet you say (and other tidbits along the line...):

Originally Posted by Red Mile Style

Plus, if I remember correctly (and it's completely possible that I am making this up) the administration of this fund is wonky.

Talk about pot and kettle.

And as for your clearly misinformed viewpoint of your NOP...

Originally Posted by Red Mile Style

It's called the National Oil Program (NOP), and basically it will nationalize the oil industry so the people can get the profits instead of big oil.

How many union pension funds or people RRSP's are invested into "big oil" that are reaping the rewards of the profits? Hmmmm? PEOPLE get the profits no matter how you look at it. Your perspective is absurd at best.

And btw, if you think Alberta is doomed after the oil runs out, think again. Ever hear about geothermal? Yeah, that concept of drilling holes down to cycle warm water up to generate electricity. Even as we speak this technology is growing and with all the pin pricks we have in the Earth here we are set for life once we start converting dead wells. The HARD part about doing this is the drilling which has already happened! Thanks to "big oil"....

The potential of tapping that source is in the hundreds of trillions of dollars. ALL CLEAN, GREEN energy.

I am surprised you consider yourself so green and don't know of this potential goldmine that will be developed over time.

[Red Mile Style]

Originally Posted by Shawnski

Wow, yet you say (and other tidbits along the line...):



Talk about pot and kettle.

And as for your clearly misinformed viewpoint of your NOP...



How many union pension funds or people RRSP's are invested into "big oil" that are reaping the rewards of the profits? Hmmmm? PEOPLE get the profits no matter how you look at it. Your perspective is absurd at best.

And btw, if you think Alberta is doomed after the oil runs out, think again. Ever hear about geothermal? Yeah, that concept of drilling holes down to cycle warm water up to generate electricity. Even as we speak this technology is growing and with all the pin pricks we have in the Earth here we are set for life once we start converting dead wells. The HARD part about doing this is the drilling which has already happened! Thanks to "big oil"....

The potential of tapping that source is in the hundreds of trillions of dollars. ALL CLEAN, GREEN energy.

I am surprised you consider yourself so green and don't know of this potential goldmine that will be developed over time.

Ha ha ha!

Nice propaganda... Now, let me get this straight, oil companies are green because they're stripped the land and drilled out the oil.

BA HA HA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

Now THAT'S rich!

It's only funny because I think you actually BELIEVE this.

What you're failing to realize from this "potential goldmine" (HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA !!!!!) Is that if the oil doesn't run out for 150 years (HA HA HA HA HA HA HA) by that time, we'll have another problem on our hands, as many places around the world already do, and that's access to clean water. But I'm sure that will last forever too... and will heat our homes (HA HA HA HAHA AHAHAHAHA)

Man, stop it, stop it. my sides... hee hee hee

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Red Mile Style

Every thing you're saying here isn't fact.

And nothing you've said here is a fact either.

There does seem to be some measure of glee in your posts about the prospect of Alberta going into the cellar. Sorry to say it but we are a ways away from that happening. The "oil running out" scenario is a long way off no matter which way you slice it and when it does happen we just might be in decent shape. Nobody is counting on the Heritage fund to "sustain Alberta". How dumb do you think we are?

[Red Mile Style]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

And nothing you've said here is a fact either.

There does seem to be some measure of glee in your posts about the prospect of Alberta going into the cellar. Sorry to say it but we are a ways away from that happening. The "oil running out" scenario is a long way off no matter which way you slice it and when it does happen we just might be in decent shape. Nobody is counting on the Heritage fund to "sustain Alberta". How dumb do you think we are?

Hey, I like Alberta. I lived there for five years and I'm a Flames fan.

I'm just trying to understand people's reasoning, and you're not helping, you're doing what everybody *from Alberta* does whenever I question them about their logic... get angry because they realize it's illogical.

Why aren't you scared about what happens when the oil is gone? People quote the Heritage fund, and then I question the Heritage fund (because I remember learning about it in school) and then you say I apparently think it will sustain Alberta (talk about putting words in my mouth!)

I hear about how bad it was during the NEP era, and what was that? That was an era without the huge revenues from oil... so what makes this different from when the oil will be gone? Why isn't anyone doing anything? Why aren't people ****ing scared? I don't get it, and maybe I never will, but goddamnit, someone help me understand!

[Shawnski]

Originally Posted by Red Mile Style

Ha ha ha!

Nice propaganda... Now, let me get this straight, oil companies are green because they're stripped the land and drilled out the oil.

BA HA HA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

Now THAT'S rich!

It's only funny because I think you actually BELIEVE this.

What you're failing to realize from this "potential goldmine" (HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA !!!!!) Is that if the oil doesn't run out for 150 years (HA HA HA HA HA HA HA) by that time, we'll have another problem on our hands, as many places around the world already do, and that's access to clean water. But I'm sure that will last forever too... and will heat our homes (HA HA HA HAHA AHAHAHAHA)

Man, stop it, stop it. my sides... hee hee hee

Nice.

First of all, where the heck did I say oil companies were green? WHERE?

I SAID, that they have already drilled the holes that will allow a secondary capture of green energy.... geothermal.

I also fail to see why you are throwing that 150 year marker out. We already have dead wells that can be converted to geothermal. And over time, guess what... the power production from dead wells via this technology will be enormous. But I guess you are not aware about this, nor that it would be a closed cycle! I.E. Pump water up, take energy, let water settle. How in the hell does that impact clean water supplies?

I fail to see how you can laugh this away. It should be what YOU want...

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Red Mile Style

I'm just trying to understand people's reasoning, and you're not helping, you're doing what everybody *from Alberta* does whenever I question them about their logic... get angry because they realize it's illogical.

Yeah, I'm really angry.

What "logic questioning" is it that you are engaged in here? Asking us why we aren't jumping up and down and "****ing scared" about what happens when the oil is gone. Is that really "logical"? I don't think so. It's a long way off and despite rumors to the contrary, everyone in the province isn't a martini swilling oil exec or a drunken rig pig. Someone provided a link that said the oil business accounts for 28% of the economy and it's going down. By the time "the oil runs out", maybe we'll have something else to go on? The rest of the world manages to get by without huge oil reserves under their feet. We aren't so ######ed as to not be able to do something when we don't have that luxury. Or at least I hope our grandkids aren't that ######ed.

[Red Mile Style]

Originally Posted by Shawnski

Nice.

First of all, where the heck did I say oil companies were green? WHERE?

HERE!!!

Jeez, quit yelling at me...

Originally Posted by Shawnski

The potential of tapping that source is in the hundreds of trillions of dollars. ALL CLEAN, GREEN energy.

Originally Posted by Shawnski

I SAID, that they have already drilled the holes that will allow a secondary capture of green energy.... geothermal.

I also fail to see why you are throwing that 150 year marker out. We already have dead wells that can be converted to geothermal. And over time, guess what... the power production from dead wells via this technology will be enormous. But I guess you are not aware about this, nor that it would be a closed cycle! I.E. Pump water up, take energy, let water settle. How in the hell does that impact clean water supplies?

I fail to see how you can laugh this away. It should be what YOU want...

This is absolutely nothing like what I want. It is so ****ing far away from what I want, it's not even the same sport, let alone same playing field.

The reality is that in 150 years (when another poster suggested the oil would run out) who knows if that water will even still be there. Let alone the huge environmental impacts hydro electricity produces. Are you unfamiliar with the huge severences aboriginal people in Quebec are getting from Quebec Hydro? Do some research into that, than praise your geothermal energy.

In all honesty, I've heard of this energy, not too familiar with it as the technology and infrastructure has not been even close to starting to be discussed about developing, but as far as I'm concerned, it's one of those things corporations that are benefitting from oil throw out there to appease whatever concerns people might have. Once it actually is being utilized, I'll start singing a different tune. The idea of utilizing the huge environmental mess these companies have produced somewhat appeals to me, but I think it's funny how the oil companies are now saying "Well, jeez, it sure is a good thing we destroyed all those ecosystems, because now we can pick up where the oil left off for energy"

Please...

[Shawnski]

Holy crap are your posts daft RMS.

Do your homework then talk to me. Hydro like geothermal?

Wow. Just.... wow.

[Red Mile Style]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Yeah, I'm really angry.

What "logic questioning" is it that you are engaged in here? Asking us why we aren't jumping up and down and "****ing scared" about what happens when the oil is gone. Is that really "logical"? I don't think so. It's a long way off and despite rumors to the contrary, everyone in the province isn't a martini swilling oil exec or a drunken rig pig. Someone provided a link that said the oil business accounts for 28% of the economy and it's going down. By the time "the oil runs out", maybe we'll have something else to go on? The rest of the world manages to get by without huge oil reserves under their feet. We aren't so ######ed as to not be able to do something when we don't have that luxury. Or at least I hope our grandkids aren't that ######ed.

Really?!?!? Not everybody in Alberta isn't a martini swilling oil exec or a drunken rig pig?

If I came across that way, I really do apologize. I'm just trying to play Devil's advocate, although my beliefs were probably portrayed accurately in this thread. Maybe my questioning techniques aren't logical, but I still don't really understand the Albertan culture at all despite recieving my post-secondary there.

I seriously missed that 28% of the economy post, but surely that 28% feeds many, many other industries (construction, banking and investment...) so the impact from the loss of oil isn't just limited to that 28%. Again, my whole interest in the subject is the social impacts and trying to get a good understanding of what could happen if joe normal who takes out a mortgage in a booming oil economy and then a recession happens.

Surely, like you said, Albertans aren't ######s, but I guess I want some reassurance that after oil Alberta will not become NEP-era again.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Red Mile Style

HERE!!!

Jeez, quit yelling at me...





This is absolutely nothing like what I want. It is so ****ing far away from what I want, it's not even the same sport, let alone same playing field.

The reality is that in 150 years (when another poster suggested the oil would run out) who knows if that water will even still be there. Let alone the huge environmental impacts hydro electricity produces. Are you unfamiliar with the huge severences aboriginal people in Quebec are getting from Quebec Hydro? Do some research into that, than praise your geothermal energy.

In all honesty, I've heard of this energy, not too familiar with it as the technology and infrastructure has not been even close to starting to be discussed about developing, but as far as I'm concerned, it's one of those things corporations that are benefitting from oil throw out there to appease whatever concerns people might have. Once it actually is being utilized, I'll start singing a different tune. The idea of utilizing the huge environmental mess these companies have produced somewhat appeals to me, but I think it's funny how the oil companies are now saying "Well, jeez, it sure is a good thing we destroyed all those ecosystems, because now we can pick up where the oil left off for energy"

Please...

It takes a special kind of person to get me defending how we pollute the world, but you appear to be special enough to do it.

We take the oil out of the ground here, we don't use it all. You and the rest of the country and world do. You can gripe all day about us evil Albertans and our daily violation of Mother Nature's undercarriage but at the end of that day, it wasn't the three million people in this province that created the demand and used 80 million barrels of the stuff. The fine people of Vancouver, yourself included, are as guilty as anyone.

[Red Mile Style]

Originally Posted by Shawnski

Holy crap are your posts daft RMS.

Do your homework then talk to me. Hydro like geothermal?

Wow. Just.... wow.

See, this is what I mean. You have a red square and your posts contain this...

I've done my homework. I spent the past four months creating the Canadian global environmental assesment report under UN mandate 21. What you're proposing is so ****ing far away that I think I will be living on the moon before anyone even starts mentioning it.

First of all, what is one of the biggest arguments against wind energy? It costs too much to hook up to the grids. But, for some reason sending energy from Northern Alberta and hooking it up to a grid will work?

No.

Secondly, energy (well, not a significant amount like you're suggesting) can not be made on it's own from water under the surface, similiarily like energy can not simply be created from a flowing river. There are huge environmental impacts, such as what is happening in Quebec right now, from harvesting energy from water. Where exactly would this water go once it hits the surface? How would you get it back in the ground? It's not practical.

[Red Mile Style]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

It takes a special kind of person to get me defending how we pollute the world, but you appear to be special enough to do it.

We take the oil out of the ground here, we don't use it all. You and the rest of the country and world do. You can gripe all day about us evil Albertans and our daily violation of Mother Nature's undercarriage but at the end of that day, it wasn't the three million people in this province that created the demand and used 80 million barrels of the stuff. The fine people of Vancouver, yourself included, are as guilty as anyone.

I don't disagree with anything you've said here... either than maybe the part where you said I was special enough to make you defend yourself. In real life, I'm pretty laid back.

Of corse it's not just Albertans polluting. The US just told Alberta to up their oil production five-fold. But I've seen the huge amount of influence oil companies have in policy making. HUGE. They have the money, people, resources to throw their clout anywhere. They are the reason why so many alternative ideas have been squashed, and why oil continues to be the leading source of energy despite all the possibilities.

Alberta could pretty much dictate to the oil companies what they want them to do. How much they want them to drill, where, when, they could even tell them that they have to start building an infrastructure for green energies if they wanted to. Alberta has the oil companies by the balls and yet it seems the other way around. Again, royalties are the lowest in the world. Tell me why American oil is worth more than Albertan? I think Alberta could pull some clout, if they wanted to, but I don't think they do.

Again, I am confused.

I don't get it. I just, don't get it.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Red Mile Style

I don't disagree with anything you've said here... either than maybe the part where you said I was special enough to make you defend yourself. In real life, I'm pretty laid back.

Of corse it's not just Albertans polluting. The US just told Alberta to up their oil production five-fold. But I've seen the huge amount of influence oil companies have in policy making. HUGE. They have the money, people, resources to throw their clout anywhere. They are the reason why so many alternative ideas have been squashed, and why oil continues to be the leading source of energy despite all the possibilities.

Alberta could pretty much dictate to the oil companies what they want them to do. How much they want them to drill, where, when, they could even tell them that they have to start building an infrastructure for green energies if they wanted to. Alberta has the oil companies by the balls and yet it seems the other way around. Again, royalties are the lowest in the world. Tell me why American oil is worth more than Albertan? I think Alberta could pull some clout, if they wanted to, but I don't think they do.

Again, I am confused.

I don't get it. I just, don't get it.

Why should the Alberta government target only the oil companies. Maybe they should tell every company that works in Alberta what to do and how to do it. That should help make the economy more stable once oil runs out. Why wouldn't companies want to come to an environment where the government tells you how to run your company.

What I don't get is why the oil companies are so greedy and selfish that they don't work for free and give all the oil money back to Albertans. What jerks!

Hell why stop there perhaps the government should tell everyone who lives, travels to or evens thinks of Alberta what to do. I am sure that I do things that harm the environment why isn't the Alberta government on my ass?

[Red Mile Style]

Originally Posted by moon

Why should the Alberta government target only the oil companies. Maybe they should tell every company that works in Alberta what to do and how to do it. That should help make the economy more stable once oil runs out. Why wouldn't companies want to come to an environment where the government tells you how to run your company.

What I don't get is why the oil companies are so greedy and selfish that they don't work for free and give all the oil money back to Albertans. What jerks!

Hell why stop there perhaps the government should tell everyone who lives, travels to or evens thinks of Alberta what to do. I am sure that I do things that harm the environment why isn't the Alberta government on my ass?

FINALLY!!!! Somebody here that is making sense!

I'm going to smoke a spliff and contemplate life's paradoxes...

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Red Mile Style

See, this is what I mean. You have a red square and your posts contain this...

I've done my homework. I spent the past four months creating the Canadian global environmental assesment report under UN mandate 21. What you're proposing is so ****ing far away that I think I will be living on the moon before anyone even starts mentioning it.

First of all, what is one of the biggest arguments against wind energy? It costs too much to hook up to the grids. But, for some reason sending energy from Northern Alberta and hooking it up to a grid will work?

No.

Secondly, energy (well, not a significant amount like you're suggesting) can not be made on it's own from water under the surface, similiarily like energy can not simply be created from a flowing river. There are huge environmental impacts, such as what is happening in Quebec right now, from harvesting energy from water. Where exactly would this water go once it hits the surface? How would you get it back in the ground? It's not practical.

What??? The water would go back into the ground...it happens every day right now as we speak. I suggest you go work on an oil rig for a few months and you might learn a few things.