[GDT] Red Wings vs. Retro Jersey Flames. 7:00 PM on Sportsnet 360, 960

[Harry Lime]

There might have been some hope that it was a certain player.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

just wondering the context for a game where the flames outshot their opponent 38-22.

His context is solid, but even then how does that change what you saw?

If Lucic was on the ice for almost 60% positive events, was 77% in xGF splits that doens't mean was terrible if he had teammates that had better nights.

He's still net positive.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

just wondering the context for a game where the flames outshot their opponent 38-22.

I am more interested to know what it was specifically that you saw which you interpreted as "really bad" from Lucic? Especially in a game in which the team as a whole played quite well.

[DJones]

Originally Posted by sureLoss

juggled the bottom 6 a bit with Bennett and Lucic swapping

Pat Steinberg @Fan960Steinberg
#Flames tonight vs. Detroit:

Gaudreau-Monahan-Lindholm
Tkachuk-Backlund-Frolik
Bennett-Ryan-Mangiapane
Lucic-Jankowski-Czarnik

Giordano-Brodie
Hanifin-Hamonic
Kylington-Andersson

Rittich

I like these lines, wouldn't mind seeing some consistency for a handful of games.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by sureLoss

juggled the bottom 6 a bit with Bennett and Lucic swapping...

Bennett-Ryan-Mangiapane...

Originally Posted by DJones

I like these lines, wouldn't mind seeing some consistency for a handful of games.

Last year Bennett found some chemistry with Derek Ryan before the Hathaway · Ryan · Mangiapane line became a fixture. I think there is potential for this to be an excellent third line.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Bingo

His context is solid, but even then how does that change what you saw?

If Lucic was on the ice for almost 60% positive events, was 77% in xGF splits that doens't mean was terrible if he had teammates that had better nights.

He's still net positive.

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I am more interested to know what it was specifically that you saw which you interpreted as "really bad" from Lucic? Especially in a game in which the team as a whole played quite well.

I suppose what I saw was a guy working very hard in a game where everyone else was also pulling in the same direction. From my perspective Bennett had a better game in terms of the quality of his minutes from an offensive generation standpoint and I thought Lucic did not look great from the defensive side of the puck. Ultimately, that didn't matter because the Flames were laying the boots, so that's why I asked for the context compared to the rest of the team.

It's surprising to me that Ryan's advanced stats seem to point to an inferior performance as I thought he had a great game on all sides of the puck.

All in all I felt like that game against the Flyers was a relative beat down where even czar looked good. I know Lucic had that nice faceoff win, but I didn't feel his performance was very standout compared to some of the other players on the ice. Even Jankowski looked great.

So, the advanced stats look great for Lucic and maybe I'm wrong about his performance. Maybe I wasn't watching him closely enough, but I didn't walk away from that game feeling like he played that great and aside from Bennett's penchant for taking bad late game penalties, may have preferred he soaked up some of the minutes lucic got, which may be the case against detroit tonight.

In a game where everyone looked great I thought Lucic more or less just looked like he was 'there'.

But maybe I'm wrong.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Last year Bennett found some chemistry with Derek Ryan before the Hathaway · Ryan · Mangiapane line became a fixture. I think there is potential for this to be an excellent third line.

Yeah it was only 161 minutes over the last two years but they were good together.

CF %: 55.4%
XGF% 53.4%

with 45.6% offensive zone faceoffs which is quite low.

Could end up being quite a good bottom 6 line if they get some time to build chemistry together.

[Toonage]

Bennett-Ryan-Czarnik I found were excellent in China (on the larger ice mind you) but never got another look after that I don't think. Not as a trio.

Bennett & Ryan have been good together. Bennett & Czarnik have been good together. Seems weird that they haven't gone back to those 3 as a line. Even for a period.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Yeah it was only 161 minutes over the last two years but they were good together.

CF %: 55.4%
XGF% 53.4%

with 45.6% offensive zone faceoffs which is quite low.

Could end up being quite a good bottom 6 line if they get some time to build chemistry together.

"Derek Ryan's over use"

I feel like Ryan has chemistry with everyone. That's not me trying to minimize what you guys are discussing, I just love having a lunch box guy like that in the bottom 6 stirring the drink.

Such a heady player.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

"Derek Ryan's over use"

I feel like Ryan has chemistry with everyone. That's not me trying to minimize what you guys are discussing, I just love having a lunch box guy like that in the bottom 6 stirring the drink.

Agreed.

I also think that's a good reason to put Bennett there with him. Bennett for most of the last two seasons has been tasked as the guy to stir the drink.

Two seasons ago with Brouwer, and last season with Jankowski and Neal for the most part. And honestly while he's was the best option for that role in the past, it's not necessarily his strong suit to be the "creator" on a line.

Ryan and Mangiapane have great chemistry together, and both are good puck distributors. Maybe Bennett can find a good niche on that line as a bit of the "third wheel" where he's not the one tasked with being the "Creator" on the line.

[Nelson]

I personally think this is the first time all 9 of the Flames best forwards are on the Flames first 3 lines. Cool!

[Kovaz]

Stoked to see Bennett-Ryan-Mangiapane tried. Bennett brings a lot of the same ingredients that Hathaway brought to that line last year but with more offensive potential.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

So, the advanced stats look great for Lucic and maybe I'm wrong about his performance. Maybe I wasn't watching him closely enough, but I didn't walk away from that game feeling like he played that great and aside from Bennett's penchant for taking bad late game penalties, may have preferred he soaked up some of the minutes lucic got, which may be the case against detroit tonight.

In a game where everyone looked great I thought Lucic more or less just looked like he was 'there'.

But maybe I'm wrong.

First off you can never be wrong in what you see. That's yours to own.

I guess where I'm coming from is that Neal was a negative contributor all year. If his offence dries up and the Flames get a winger that isn't a negative contributor than they take a baby step ahead.

In this game he was a positive contributor for sure, but he'll never be flashy or carry the play, I don't expect that at all.

Early returns this year have Neal at 45.9% xGF%, and Lucic at 49.0% after a terrible start.

So things are starting to settle in as expected.

This season Lucic has had 2 stinkers, 2 just under water, 2 just above water, and then his last game which was very good.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Yeah it was only 161 minutes over the last two years but they were good together.

CF %: 55.4%
XGF% 53.4%

with 45.6% offensive zone faceoffs which is quite low.

Could end up being quite a good bottom 6 line if they get some time to build chemistry together.

Wow. I had no idea the number would be that low. When you watch AC's Bennett video almost all his good plays in the Regular Season also feature Derek Ryan.

[Jeff Lebowski]

DET coming of a loss so CGY will have to be ready. CGY is definitely growing and improving, getting better and better and that is great to see. Looking forward to seeing a high paced game with attention to detail.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Yeah it was only 161 minutes over the last two years but they were good together.

CF %: 55.4%
XGF% 53.4%

with 45.6% offensive zone faceoffs which is quite low.

Could end up being quite a good bottom 6 line if they get some time to build chemistry together.

I'm surprised that possession number was so high considering my recollection has the opposite wingers as either Dillon Dube or James Neal - and both those guys had terrible possession numbers last year iirc

[TheIronMaiden]

Fancy stats people what do the numbers say about Sam Bennett's defensive abilities? Also could you please explain it like I am 5 because I'm not great with numbers .

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Bingo

First off you can never be wrong in what you see. That's yours to own.

I guess where I'm coming from is that Neal was a negative contributor all year. If his offence dries up and the Flames get a winger that isn't a negative contributor than they take a baby step ahead.

In this game he was a positive contributor for sure, but he'll never be flashy or carry the play, I don't expect that at all.

Early returns this year have Neal at 45.9% xGF%, and Lucic at 49.0% after a terrible start.

So things are starting to settle in as expected.

This season Lucic has had 2 stinkers, 2 just under water, 2 just above water, and then his last game which was very good.

For me going forward, I'm not playing the Lucic - Neal comparison because I agree with you on Neal. His effort level looks 100% improved, but he still looks terrible. There was a sequence in the last oiler game I watched where he bobbled the puck 3 times in one possession coming out of his own zone before dumping it into the corner and having it ramp up off the glass and out. He was absolutely huffing and puffing, doing his damndest and it was like watching me handle the puck.

I've wathced a couple of oiler games this year and I think Neal looks flat out horrible in terms of his ability to handle pucks and passes, his skating etc etc. He looks borderline done to me as a player still.

It just happens that he can still jam in pucks.

My sourpuss is about cap space being a hugely valuable commodity this year and helping the oilers escape Lucic Cap Jail, and really, it's about not moving heaven and earth to get the Sens to take Neal in a deal that brought back Stone.

Neal still sucks just as much as he did in Calgary, it's just that now he's a sucky player trying really hard.

[Matty81]

Originally Posted by 300 MPH Blues

I still want to see Mantha answer for the #### he pulled on Hamonic!

Yeah me too, that was one of the dirtiest things I've ever seen in the NHL excepting some of the stick swinging incidents and the Bertuzzi. Him and Kane are the two guys in the league I just can not stand.


I suspect the flames have mostly let it go though, which honestly is better for the team instead of going on a vendetta 70s/80s style. And Lucic wasn't even here so he probably doesn't care.



Now that Witkowski is gone from Detroit they are buttery soft, not like the Flames are real tough but if a team in the NHL is going to get bullied this year they'd be right up there.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

Fancy stats people what do the numbers say about Sam Bennett's defensive abilities? Also could you please explain it like I am 5 because I'm not great with numbers .

As a center, the fancy stats typically had him as one of our better defensive players. In 2016-17 I believe only Stajan had better shot suppression, and Stajan was iirc seeing easier competition. To my eyes this lined up with his strengths - pressuring in the neutral zone, supporting his D behind and in front of the net with his hard-on-puck-and-body style, and being strong on zone exits with his vision and shiftiness. However his shot generation numbers suffered, which one may attribute to the lack of chemistry with slower, unskilled wingers like Troy Brouwer. The Versteeg-Bennett-Chiasson line had pretty strong all around numbers though

As a winger, it's actually been the opposite. The team typically gives up a lot of chances with him on the ice. This makes sense as he's a less natural North-South player than a guy like Frolik, and additionally it probably highlights the defensive weaknesses of his most common center, Mark Jankowski in the same areas Bennett excels at. Generally this line, wherher with Jagr or Czarnik, has excelled most by simply out-offense-ing the opposition. I'd also wager Bennett's propensity to overextend as the F1 on the forecheck gets him into trouble.