Ongoing thread for Neal/Lucic discussion

[mrdonkey]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

The narrative of how last year played out is starting to change here.

I didn't see Peters letting things fester. I didn't see Neal riding the pine or being treated poorly.

I saw Neal being given regular ice time, all season long - arguably, too much of it. I saw a fanbase that questioned, on an almost daily basis, why Neal was getting so much ice time and PP time, despite his play not warranting it. There were countless posts throughout the season lamenting the fact that Neal was getting more ice time than Ryan, Bennett, Mangiapane and Frolik.

Neal was 6th in ice time, behind the big 5. Did he deserve that? It was almost unanimous that he did not. However, many felt that we needed to get Neal going, so you could argue that it made sense.

Suggesting that Peters and Treliving did nothing, or sat around and let things fester is laughable. Neal garnered a tremendous amount of attention last year. The only thing he didn't get was a gifted spot on the top line (which would have been completely unjust if he had). Yet, even saying that, he did get the shift after penalties with the top line, for much of the year - did he do anything with that which would have suggested that he might have warranted more opportunity? Nope.

What I find laughable is the assertion that things have changed so dramatically for Neal because of... magic? Some kind of mystical voodoo force that was never going to visit him in Calgary? And that adding Milan effing Lucic was the only solution to this problem.

What is Edmonton doing differently that Calgary could not possibly have done? Was there really nothing that could have massaged this situation behind closed doors that could have prevented this? No kind of early intervention that would have drastically changed the outcome of all this?

I don’t buy for a second that this was inevitable from day one, and that this was the only outcome that could ever make sense. Somewhere, things failed. My question is where and how.

I don’t expect we will ever get a definitive answer for these questions, because we don’t know what goes on behind closed doors. We only know that the people who do control those things didn’t do a very good job. Like I said, the results speak for themselves. The evidence is now showing they mismanaged an asset that could have helped them, and took on a known commodity that amounts to $5 million of dead cap space as a last resort.

[ricosuave]

While you guys all talk about the cap hit and the uninspired play etc, I think that one big thing that is overlooked is how he (and potentially his buddy Smith) were in the room during all this.

Maybe Neal could bounce back, maybe he was/is worth his salary at some point, under very specific circumstances.

But to hear Tkachuk speak about how close the room is, etc when he signed, and keeping everyone on the team speaks volumes about how the team didnt miss either Neal or Smith, or their entitlement attitude, tidbits of which that have crept out here and there, both during their time and since they've been gone.

I couldn't care less if Neal scores 50, he was never going to do it here, despite the numerous chances he was given, and Smith was holding Rittich back as well.

Good riddance to both of them.

Addition by subtraction.

The Flames are a better team today without them, or those kind of players, on the TEAM. It sucks that we had to deal with the Oilers to make it happen, but hey, I see Lucic and Talbot as much better replacements, despite their costs.

It's not always about the money. It can be about the overall harmony too.

[TheScorpion]

Originally Posted by ricosuave

I could care less if Neal scores 50

How much less?

[ricosuave]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

How much less?

Stop trying so hard, OK?

[TheScorpion]

Originally Posted by ricosuave

Stop trying so hard, OK?

Dunno what you think I'm "trying hard" to do. Just making a little joke, lighten up!

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by mrdonkey

What is Edmonton doing differently that Calgary could not possibly have done? Was there really nothing that could have massaged this situation behind closed doors that could have prevented this? No kind of early intervention that would have drastically changed the outcome of all this?

what EDM is doing is gifting Neal premium PP time with some of the best forwards in the nhl. This wasn’t possible in CGY because we have four forwards clearly better than Neal.

I don’t really see how it could have been managed better. As Enoch Root eloquently points out Neal got ice time all season that he didn’t deserve. At some point the player has to take a fair chunk of the blame if he’s useless at playing on any line outside of line 1.

This is on Neal. Neal was out of shape. Neal didn’t put in the hard work and effort. Neal sucked. Neal was gifted ice time he didn’t deserve.

It’s a fantasy some are choosing to buy into that it could have gone better. It is what it is.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by ricosuave

Stop trying so hard, OK?

Maybe just try a little harder and meet in the middle.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

what EDM is doing is gifting Neal premium PP time with some of the best forwards in the nhl. This wasn’t possible in CGY because we have four forwards clearly better than Neal.

I don’t really see how it could have been managed better. As Enoch Root eloquently points out Neal got ice time all season that he didn’t deserve. At some point the player has to take a fair chunk of the blame if he’s useless at playing on any line outside of line 1.

This is on Neal. Neal was out of shape. Neal didn’t put in the hard work and effort. Neal sucked. Neal was gifted ice time he didn’t deserve.

It’s a fantasy some are choosing to buy into that it could have gone better. It is what it is.

I'm pretty sure the Flames tried all sorts of on and off ice stuff with Neal to turn the script, but it didn't work.

The fact Neal got booted so unceremoniously maybe gave him a wakeup call that had a bigger effect than what the Flames could possibly have done internally.

[pepper24]

Originally Posted by ricosuave

I couldn't care less if Neal scores 50, he was never going to do it here, despite the numerous chances he was given, and Smith was holding Rittich back as well.

He won't score 50 in Edmonton, Calgary or any team but if he returns to his standard 20+ goal season like every season except last year then I care. I care a lot as the Flames can use that secondary scoring.

I think he could have easily done 20+ goals for most of his contract in Calgary after a bad year. 2 long playoff runs take a toll. With a full summer of training we're seeing vintage James Neal again. I care about that as a Flames fan and now seeing our rivals taking advantage of that.

[activeStick]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Why?



You like Neal? You want Neal to succeed in Edmonton? You want to be right in this argument?



Why would you be looking forward to people that want Calgary to win or at least not lose a trade to run out of excuses?

Because his thing is to be right and then pull up posts he's made in the past that end up being right. Humble bragging without the humble.

[cam_wmh]

Originally Posted by pepper24

He won't score 50 in Edmonton, Calgary or any team but if he returns to his standard 20+ goal season like every season except last year then I care. I care a lot as the Flames can use that secondary scoring.

I think he could have easily done 20+ goals for most of his contract in Calgary after a bad year. 2 long playoff runs take a toll. With a full summer of training we're seeing vintage James Neal again. I care about that as a Flames fan and now seeing our rivals taking advantage of that.

On which line, and which PP unit would you have foreseen Neal producing 20+ goals on the Flames?

[Robbob]

Neal is being gifted time in Edmonton because they have zero depth. A lot of their players are just feasting of the PP early on.

I don't know who else plays with Neal, but RNH has zero goals and 1 assist at even strength. To take any stat after 5 or 6 games and thing that will be the case for the remaining 76 games is ridiculous. Unless you truly believe the Neal will continue to have a shooting % of 40% and the Oilers will continue to run their PK at 95% and their PP at 40%.

Bottom line I want him to hit 21 goals because I want that draft pick. I think even with the quick start I don't think it is a slam dunk for the conditions to be met.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by mrdonkey

What I find laughable is the assertion that things have changed so dramatically for Neal because of... magic? Some kind of mystical voodoo force that was never going to visit him in Calgary? And that adding Milan effing Lucic was the only solution to this problem.

What is Edmonton doing differently that Calgary could not possibly have done? Was there really nothing that could have massaged this situation behind closed doors that could have prevented this? No kind of early intervention that would have drastically changed the outcome of all this?

Take another look at SuperMatt’s post directly above yours—the answers are all there. There is no magic in Edmonton beyond the incredible luck the Oilers have had to begin the season. The biggest difference for Neal is a ridiculously high powerplay shooting percentage. I don’t think the constant hand wringing about this trade would bother me so much if some posters actually paid attention to the responses their complaints illicit. Yes, the trade looks bad today. But it also seems like a good bet that the optics will appear very differently after a few more months.

I don’t buy for a second that this was inevitable from day one, and that this was the only outcome that could ever make sense. Somewhere, things failed. My question is where and how.

I don’t expect we will ever get a definitive answer for these questions, because we don’t know what goes on behind closed doors. We only know that the people who do control those things didn’t do a very good job. Like I said, the results speak for themselves. The evidence is now showing they mismanaged an asset that could have helped them, and took on a known commodity that amounts to $5 million of dead cap space as a last resort.

From the things I have heard about behind closed doors which I will not repeat on this site, there was no chance to salvage James Neal in Calgary. I expect a similar disaster is on the horizon in Edmonton. Maybe it takes a little more time to hit, but it’s coming.


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[Johnny Makarov]

The Flames finished 2nd the league without Neal. We'll make it pretty easily into the playoffs again this year.

We totally sucked ass in the playoffs last year. Lucic will help us 100,000% more than Neal in the playoffs. So upgrade!

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Not tough for me at all.

Having 5 million dollars in unused cap space from buyouts in the last year of contention is insanity.

It's already had enough with 2.5 million sitting idle right now voluntarily doubling that and operating with a 76 million dollar cap while everyone else is dealing with 81 is an unmitigated disaster

No one else has unused cap space from either buyouts, or internal caps?

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Johnny Makarov

The Flames finished 2nd the league without Neal. We'll make it pretty easily into the playoffs again this year.

We totally sucked ass in the playoffs last year. Lucic will help us 100,000% more than Neal in the playoffs. So upgrade!

We finished 2nd in the league last year on the backs of a very large number of career years. If we're going to minimize the impacts of inevitable declines from some players, we need others to step up. Lucic will not help that. I doubt he even matches Neal's pitiful total from last year.

As far as how much he would help us in the playoffs, we were expressing the same hopes about Brouwer and Neal. It's not going to happen with Lucic either. If we have Lucic in the lineup instead of Neal last year, Colorado still laughs and waltzes around us.

We need guys like Tkachuk to step up to beat teams like that. Not 12th/13th forwards.

[TheScorpion]

I can't imagine how much Neal will be booed on January 11.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

I can't imagine how much Neal will be booed on January 11.

I actually wish the crowd would be coordinated enough to not boo - just dead silence when a disliked player gets the puck.

And then maybe in one of the silences "You suck, Neal - Jackass".

[Johnny Makarov]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

We finished 2nd in the league last year on the backs of a very large number of career years. If we're going to minimize the impacts of inevitable declines from some players, we need others to step up. Lucic will not help that. I doubt he even matches Neal's pitiful total from last year.

As far as how much he would help us in the playoffs, we were expressing the same hopes about Brouwer and Neal. It's not going to happen with Lucic either. If we have Lucic in the lineup instead of Neal last year, Colorado still laughs and waltzes around us.

We need guys like Tkachuk to step up to beat teams like that. Not 12th/13th forwards.

Who's laughing here? (Just saw this 10 mins ago and is so effing awesome)


Flames lost to the Avs because we were butter soft. Brouwer and Neal combined isn't as scary as Looch.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Johnny Makarov

Who's laughing here? (Just saw this 10 mins ago and is so effing awesome)


Flames lost to the Avs because we were butter soft. Brouwer and Neal combined isn't as scary as Looch.

Who was laughing here?