Ongoing thread for Neal/Lucic discussion

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

I wasn't talking about he cap hit specifically.

The Flames saved many millions of actual dollars in this deal. It likely allowed them to buy out Stone.

That makes no sense. The dollar savings is the same as the cap hit savings - $500k per year. That's going to total $2 million. And you had better hope the NHL and NHLPA do manage to make a deal without a lockout, because if not, we will actually end up paying more in actual dollars than if we hadn't made the deal.

And no, this trade had nothing to do with buying out Stone. Stone was bought out because we (at the time) felt he had no role, and needed to clear that ~$2 million in cap space. That was going to happen with or without the Neal-Lucic trade.

[flamesgod]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

That makes no sense. The dollar savings is the same as the cap hit savings - $500k per year. That's going to total $2 million. And you had better hope the NHL and NHLPA do manage to make a deal without a lockout, because if not, we will actually end up paying more in actual dollars than if we hadn't made the deal.

And no, this trade had nothing to do with buying out Stone. Stone was bought out because we (at the time) felt he had no role, and needed to clear that ~$2 million in cap space. That was going to happen with or without the Neal-Lucic trade.

The Flames are paying Lucic $15mil for 4 years of service. How is that not saving money??
Check that they’re paying less. I forgot about the salary retention. Definitely saving money.

[The Yen Man]

Whatever. Usually, whenever something even remotely positive happens for the Oilers and their fans, they and the media hype the crap out it just so they can have a big meltdown later on when it fails spectacularly. So I'm looking forward to the handwringing in game 50 when Neal's still sitting at 9 goals total for the year.

[TheScorpion]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

He was also absurdly unlucky at scoring with us. So that goes both ways.

I must say I vehemently disagree. How many times did you watch Neal and honestly say, "man he came so close to scoring there"?

[ricardodw]

There are posters that are arguing that Neal is a one dimensional player that has a negative impact on his team.

They are saying that some how he Forest Gumped his way into playing in 104 play off games. All but his last 4 he played top-6 minutes if not top-3.

He had the same record when the Flames outbid and out promised all other NHL teams to sign him for a 5 year 5.75 M.

Nashville had left him off their protected list with one year left on his 5M x6 contract. They chose to protect Calle Jarnok (Career high 31 points) over him.

There is pretty much uniform support for Brad Treliving getting extended a year after he signed a player that was so obviously a one dimensional player and had no fit with his team.

---

The Flames, unlike the other organizations that Neal went to the playoffs, do not have a playoff culture.

They had a great season with half the team having career years and then went into the playoffs like sheep into the slaughter.

Monahan/Gaudreau are not expected to go head to head with other teams top lines in the regular season. The whole regular season is geared to them padding their scoring stats.

In the playoffs you just know that Bennett and Jankowski and Hathaway(and Neal) will be needed to play larger roles than Czarnik and Ryan and Frolik. You might want to plan on that in at least part the regular season.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

That makes no sense. The dollar savings is the same as the cap hit savings - $500k per year. That's going to total $2 million. And you had better hope the NHL and NHLPA do manage to make a deal without a lockout, because if not, we will actually end up paying more in actual dollars than if we hadn't made the deal.

And no, this trade had nothing to do with buying out Stone. Stone was bought out because we (at the time) felt he had no role, and needed to clear that ~$2 million in cap space. That was going to happen with or without the Neal-Lucic trade.

The dollar saving was much more than the cap hit because Lucic already had way more of his contract already paid by way of bonus and front loading of the contract.

I believe the actual cash savings was in the neighbourhood of $8,000,000., but I am going from memory.

Don't assume that the Flames owners will simply throw money after every UFA contract mistake. The extra money allows much more flexibility to buy out contracts.

[Flash Walken]

"The Flexibility to Buy Out Contracts"

Taking on a massive salary liability in order to...buy out other, lesser salary liabilities.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by flamesgod

The Flames are paying Lucic $15mil for 4 years of service. How is that not saving money??
Check that they’re paying less. I forgot about the salary retention. Definitely saving money.

Yeah, that's true enough. I forgot for a moment how ridiculously front-loaded that deal was.

But no, it had nothing at all to do with the Stone buy-out. That was was about freeing cap space and had to happen anyway.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

I must say I vehemently disagree. How many times did you watch Neal and honestly say, "man he came so close to scoring there"?

Are we counting times he blew the zone without team possession?

[DazzlinDino]

7

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

I must say I vehemently disagree. How many times did you watch Neal and honestly say, "man he came so close to scoring there"?

Agreed! There is no excuse .He pretty much mailed it in all year. A lot of guys on the team worked really hard to make the playoffs while Neal pretty much put himself ahead of the team. He came to camp out of shape but the bottom line is he got paid to do his job and he didn't do it. Lots of guys make the playoffs every year and don't use the same excuse Neal used. Him dragging his attitude to the playoffs was ian insult to his teammates that worked hard to get there. I am not surprised he is scoring for the oilers, it just confirms he in fact mailed it in.

Brad on the other hand gave Neal and Brouwer too much money in term. He should have given the money but shorter term kind of a show me contract. If he had done that we wouldn't have had to trade for Lucic, and would have had more cap room .

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

There is pretty much uniform support for Brad Treliving getting extended a year after he signed a player that was so obviously a one dimensional player and had no fit with his team.

It's almost like Treliving has done more than one thing in his tenure.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

I must say I vehemently disagree. How many times did you watch Neal and honestly say, "man he came so close to scoring there"?

His shooting percentage with us was less than half his career norms. You can admit that Neal both played like crap AND had horrible luck when he did get his chances. They aren't mutually exclusive.

There was no reason to think he would consistently become a 5% shooter.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I don't think so. It's not just Neal but the effect he has on his linemates. McDavid turned a replacement level player in Chiasson into a 20+ goal forward so you replace Chaisson with a guy like Neal that has pedigree as a goal scorer then it makes life easier for McDavid, RNH, or Draisaitl. I personally don't believe the Flames sniff 100 points if they don't make the acquisition of Lindholm last season as he played a key role in the career seasons of Monahan and Gaudreau.

Sidney Crosby and Mark Stone on two different sites led the league in WAR last year with numbers between 5.5 and 7

So that's 11 to 14 points and they're at the top.

James Neal is not worth an additional 15 points in the standings.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by DazzlinDino

Agreed! There is no excuse .He pretty much mailed it in all year. A lot of guys on the team worked really hard to make the playoffs while Neal pretty much put himself ahead of the team. He came to camp out of shape but the bottom line is he got paid to do his job and he didn't do it. Lots of guys make the playoffs every year and don't use the same excuse Neal used. Him dragging his attitude to the playoffs was ian insult to his teammatesmates that worked hard to get there. I am not surprised he is scoring for the oilers, it just confirms he in fact mailed it in...

Right, but I think this actually helps to illustrate what Resolute was getting at. Neal’s astonishingly poor performance last year was—at least partially—due to correctable factors. It sounds like he is in much better shape now, and I suspect the experience of last year was also a motivating factor for Neal, at least in the early-going. He is almost certain to see an improvement on his 5% SP from last year based on these changes alone.

I think Neal will be a better player this year—how could he possibly not be? But I also think the ceiling for him is fairly low—especially for a top six forward playing tonnes of powerplay mins.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Sidney Crosby and Mark Stone on two different sites led the league in WAR last year with numbers between 5.5 and 7

lolcry

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Of course it matters. The fact is that the top unit WAS among the best in the NHL. The Flames were the ONLY team in the entire League with all five players in the top-50 of powerplay production. I would say that was definitely above tinkering, especially to accommodate a disgruntled and disinterested player who was doing nothing else to contribute.

Just scraped some data and assigned each team a group of five in production as the top unit for simplicity.

Calgary's top 5 finished 6th in the league. (big four forwards and Giordano).

Tampa, Florida, Boston, Colorado, Washington and Pittsburgh ahead.

So yeah there was simply no room for Neal and the numbers prove that out effectively.

The Flames second unit (every other player) finished 22nd.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

For an academic, research in not your strongest point

took me less than a minute link

Man you soiled yourself there.

That's not the top unit, it's the entirety of each team.

[Bourque's Twin]

I still believe Neal is garbage despite the fact he already has 6 goals. 5 of them are on the PP and he's playing with Connor McDavid. Alex Chiasson even put up 20+ on McDavid's line. It's not that Neal has bounced back. McDavid is just that good.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

lolcry

What's your problem now? Why can't you expand on an issue if you have one? The one word take make you look small.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Bingo

What's your problem now? Why can't you expand on an issue if you have one? The one word take make you look small.

Best player in the league was available at the deadline in a season where Calgary were strong cup contenders with a gaping hole on right wing which just happens to be the position the best player in the world played.

Very Laugh/Cry emotions.