2019/2020 English Premier League

[devo22]

Unless they nosedive, I think he should get the year for sure. He's inherited a bad squad and it takes a lot of time to change that, especially since he hasn't been backed as much as needed so far (member when he said they'd replace Lukaku for sure? I member).

Tactically I think he's in a dilemma. It's clear he knows that this team is best on the counter, but expectations at United are different. This team lacks a clear identity, but that's down to his predecessors. Ole tries his best to bring youth talent into the squad, but again, it takes time.

This year is a write-off, but they've commotted to building longterm and I'm fine with that. Changing managers would do nothing in this situation. What has Dyche done to be even in this conversation for you? How would he help this team in this situation?

[Locke]

Originally Posted by devo22

yeah, let's change managers again. That'll solve anything.

People who just point to Ole ignore the underlying problems that have plagued the club for years now. It takes time, it takes patience, and it's not going to be pretty.

But yeah, I'm sure Sean Dyche would be the answer, lol.

This is important. I dont know what the expectations are of Ole, I agree that canning him is useless because there is no saviour-manager out there just twiddling his thumbs waiting for United's call.

That being said though, appointing a 'sacrificial lamb' manager is a common tactic used to buy time from the fans and jettison deadwood.

I kind of thought that was going to be Moyes/LVG but they kept on buying players.

I thought Ole/United had a pretty good transfer window getting players out, the only major issues was that then they go out and splash a bunch of money on Maguire which isnt in keeping with the strategy as well as the fact that a lot of the players being booted are only out on loan.

Again, part of this is poor management in targeting and acquiring players as well as retaining them. Their United wages were far in excess of anything anyone else would be willing to pay them considering their levels of performance.

But I agree, I dont think theres much sense in canning Ole, there isnt a clear upgrade available and the squad is nowhere near what an incoming manager would want and there doesnt seem to be much in the way of overarching strategy of moving the club to a target.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by devo22

Unless they nosedive, I think he should get the year for sure. He's inherited a bad squad and it takes a lot of time to change that, especially since he hasn't been backed as much as needed so far (member when he said they'd replace Lukaku for sure? I member).

Tactically I think he's in a dilemma. It's clear he knows that this team is best on the counter, but expectations at United are different. This team lacks a clear identity, but that's down to his predecessors. Ole tries his best to bring youth talent into the squad, but again, it takes time.

This year is a write-off, but they've commotted to building longterm and I'm fine with that. Changing managers would do nothing in this situation. What has Dyche done to be even in this conversation for you? How would he help this team in this situation?

I brought up Dyche because Burnley have scored more goals than United this year. There are issues at United, but there is still enough talent they shouldn't be getting outscored by a route one team. And I saw another horrible number where they have scored one goal or fewer in something like 17 of their last 21 games. As for Lukaku, if Ole still wanted him there he'd be there. I know youth takes time, but you also have to play them and not keeping sending Lingard and Mata out there. If you're gonna suck, might as well suck with some promise.

Ole will get the year, but it's not like he has a great track record of success as a PL manager. He had a wonderful start at United, but that's now abundantly clear that was a bump more due to Mourinho being gone than anything he did. And it's gonna be harder to get backed when you don't even make Europa League let alone Champions League. At this point it looks like EL is gonna be a struggle for United.

[devo22]

Originally Posted by Locke

That being said though, appointing a 'sacrificial lamb' manager is a common tactic used to buy time from the fans and jettison deadwood.

I kind of thought that was going to be Moyes/LVG but they kept on buying players.

I thought Ole/United had a pretty good transfer window getting players out, the only major issues was that then they go out and splash a bunch of money on Maguire which isnt in keeping with the strategy as well as the fact that a lot of the players being booted are only out on loan.

I don't necessarily think Ole is a sacrificial lamb. He might very well be, if results don't improve and a game-changing manager becomes available. But I also think he has it in him to improve things.

The Maguire signing was fine. Trusting youth is great, but you need a reliable spine and Maguire is a great fit. The only mistake this summer was signing only 3 players (who have all looked really good so far) when everybody with healthy eyes knew they needed 5.

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

I brought up Dyche because Burnley have scored more goals than United this year. There are issues at United, but there is still enough talent they shouldn't be getting outscored by a route one team. And I saw another horrible number where they have scored one goal or fewer in something like 17 of their last 21 games. As for Lukaku, if Ole still wanted him there he'd be there. I know youth takes time, but you also have to play them and not keeping sending Lingard and Mata out there. If you're gonna suck, might as well suck with some promise.

but not scoring enough goals so far isn't down to the manager. Dyche is called the Ginger Mourinho for a reason and Solskjaer is a former striker.

The problem, again, is squad planning. Selling Lukaku was the right call, but not bringing in a replacement was criminal. Martial is fine, but prone to injuries and bad spells. Rashford's not a number 9 and will never be one. Greenwood is 17. There's just not enough depth there and, despite creating chances, you often come away asking yourself "well who tf is supposed to score a goal here?". Add in a couple of missed penalties and here we are.

And that all leads to Bagors point of deadwood getting exposed, the squad is just too thin in terms of players that can actually have an impact and so you HAVE to field players who are not good enough. And I don't think a change of manager would get a lot more out of this group.

[d_phaneuf]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

So this doesn't include last nights match, but it's worth noting that Mourinho's record includes a large stretch of the infamous "Mourinho year three" syndrome, and with Ole's record having the dead cat bounce he got post-Mourinho.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1178627938469765122

You look at Chelsea and Lampard, and he has obviously had less resources than Ole (regardless of the Glazer issues, they still found £130 million to upgrade the defense), Lampard lost one of the very best players in the world and is heavily relying on youth, yet you watch them and you see a clear vision and you see a squad that is getting better. You watch this United team and they have scored more than one goal once this season in all comps, against Chelsea, in what is looking more and more like the most misleading scoreline of the season. And it's not like United have faced a murderers row of opponents either.

Are there major issues in that squad? Yes. But they should not look this abject going forward. Burnley should not have more goals than United. Could another manager do better? Maybe, but the flip side obviously is how many managers would do worse than Ole right now? Speaking of Burnley, would Sean Dyche do any worse? Or Eddie Howe? Do I think Ole should be sacked now? Probably not, but given how they look right now it seems like him being sacked at the end of the season is a foregone conclusion. If he weren't a club legend I seriously doubt fans would be giving him this much rope. They look really, really bad.

Lampard is relying on youth from a club he inherited, which was routinely talked about for their 40+ players out on loan. Also just in general, he inherited a team with real vet leadership in kante, aapi, jorginho etc.

Put a single 11 together and I'd say even before the season, 7 or 8 chelsea players get in

Kinda early to say they are getting better under him as well in 10 games, we will see in a few months

[d_phaneuf]

Originally Posted by devo22

Unless they nosedive, I think he should get the year for sure. He's inherited a bad squad and it takes a lot of time to change that, especially since he hasn't been backed as much as needed so far (member when he said they'd replace Lukaku for sure? I member).

Tactically I think he's in a dilemma. It's clear he knows that this team is best on the counter, but expectations at United are different. This team lacks a clear identity, but that's down to his predecessors. Ole tries his best to bring youth talent into the squad, but again, it takes time.

This year is a write-off, but they've commotted to building longterm and I'm fine with that. Changing managers would do nothing in this situation. What has Dyche done to be even in this conversation for you? How would he help this team in this situation?

I think the tactics is a big thing, I still remember under Mourinho seeing neville saying this is just now how united play, the fans wont accept it.

I dont think it resonates with north american sports, but so many clubs in england and europe have this identity the clubs supporters believe in

Spurs fans were calling for avb out at matches in his final year, matches they were winning 1-0, because they werent attacking, the club have always, sometimes to their detriment, played a free flowing style

United, as neville said, have always been a team who had great wingers who could attack

Ajax and barca, and the dutch in general, focus on total football.

Theres a bunch more, inter in Italy, boca jrs in argentina, etc.

If ole starts sitting back and playing counter, he loses the fans

[d_phaneuf]

Also not sure which thread for this

But the Maradona doc on hbo last night was incredible, definitely a must watch

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by devo22

The Maguire signing was fine.

Agreed. Clueless to suggest otherwise.

Originally Posted by devo22

The problem, again, is squad planning. Selling Lukaku was the right call, but not bringing in a replacement was criminal.

Agree and disagree. Absolutely right to get rid of Lukaku.

And yes, agreed it left a hole that needed to be filled. But what I'm OK about is that they didn't throw cash at the first big name available. I'd rather they are where they're at now than having a knee jerk reaction and taking the same old mercenary like player like Dybala. So whilst it left a hole I wouldn't exactly call it criminal simply because I don't think there was anyone available. I'd rather that than handcuff themselves to a kneejerk replacement.

Hopefully they can move a couple more on in January and the rest in the summer. Hopefully him and Edwin are reconnecting.
Who I'd like to see go.
Pogba,Martial, Lindgard, Matic, Young, Mata. Change the dressing room completely.

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

As for Lukaku, if Ole still wanted him there he'd be there.

Read this a few times and still no idea what you are trying to say. Is there a point you're trying to make here?

[SuperMatt18]

I think the thing with Jose and Ole’s record is that It just shows that a flawed squad remains flawed no matter who the manager is.

Similar thing with Zidane and Real Madrid right now.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

I think the thing with Jose and Ole’s record is that It just shows that a flawed squad remains flawed no matter who the manager is.

Similar thing with Zidane and Real Madrid right now.

Well....yes and no. Of course you cant make bricks without clay, so the squad is what it is and there are limits to what you can expect from it.

However, the manager also has a say in the construction of that squad, not unlimited carte-blanche mind you, of course, such is the nature of reality and competition. You cant just get all the players you want and nobody else can, thats just not realistic.

That said though, you can operate the squad you have to the best of their strengths, that takes courage and intelligence though, but lower-end teams do it all the time, parking the bus, hitting on the counter, etc.

You cant take Watford and set them out to play like Real Madrid.

A manager should take the squad he has and assemble his tactics to play to the strengths of the players and assets he has available.

[devo22]

Originally Posted by d_phaneuf

If ole starts sitting back and playing counter, he loses the fans

yes, but:

Originally Posted by Locke

A manager should take the squad he has and assemble his tactics to play to the strengths of the players and assets he has available.

and that's the dilemma. This squad is best on the counter, as demonstrated repeatedly. They tore Chelsea apart (granted, that was a freak scoreline, but they did play really well that day) and looked pretty good against Leicester, but really struggle when they have the ball. You saw it yesterday again, they have lots of possession that Sir Alex would have called "a waste of time" because there was no threat.

As for identity, Ole at least uses the youngsters. Bringing through academy grads has always been a huge part of Uniteds DNA and fans absolutely want that. Mourinho did give chances to McTominay, but that's about it.

Originally Posted by Bagor

And yes, agreed it left a hole that needed to be filled. But what I'm OK about is that they didn't throw cash at the first big name available. I'd rather they are where they're at now than having a knee jerk reaction and taking the same old mercenary like player like Dybala. So whilst it left a hole I wouldn't exactly call it criminal simply because I don't think there was anyone available. I'd rather that than handcuff themselves to a kneejerk replacement.

absolutely. I'm also happy that they didn't go for marquee names again because over the past years that has obviously contributed to the hole they're in right now. But seeing how they unearthed a gem like Dan James, I just don't see that they couldn't find a promising striker that could help them.

Originally Posted by Bagor

Who I'd like to see go.
Pogba,Martial, Lindgard, Matic, Young, Mata. Change the dressing room completely.

solid list, although I fully expect Martial to stay (and I'm okay with that). Pogba will probably want to go to Madrid and I'm fine with that. Matic and Young are on expiring contracts I believe and should leave for sure.

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

I think the thing with Jose and Ole’s record is that It just shows that a flawed squad remains flawed no matter who the manager is.

Similar thing with Zidane and Real Madrid right now.

true. And that's why I get so pissed when I see pundit-Mourinho, sitting there with his stupid smug face, critizing United. It's the god-awful squad that YOU assembled, but you have the audacity to blast them? Go pound sand, Jose.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Mourinho squeezed 81 points out of that squad, which in hindsight looks like a minor miracle. I think he suggested it was his best coaching job and he very well might be right. I still contend though that as many issues as there are, they still shouldn't look this bad. The have a mediocre team, but they play like a bad one.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

Mourinho squeezed 81 points out of that squad, which in hindsight looks like a minor miracle. I think he suggested it was his best coaching job and he very well might be right. I still contend though that as many issues as there are, they still shouldn't look this bad. The have a mediocre team, but they play like a bad one.

Precisely, goes back to my point, they have a decent group of players but you're asking them to play a style that doesnt suit their strengths.

[Senator Clay Davis]

But as we all know it's far cheaper to replace the manager than it is half the squad. And if they're not in Europe at all next year, there isn't gonna be much of a transfer budget. Suffice to say they are deeply ####ed right now.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

But as we all know it's far cheaper to replace the manager than it is half the squad. And if they're not in Europe at all next year, there isn't gonna be much of a transfer budget. Suffice to say they are deeply ####ed right now.

Very true, but frankly I think its become even clearer that what the major clubs really need to do is install a manager with vision, support and a degree of control and influence to mold the club and the squad into what they see fit and give them leash to run with it.

Its somewhat gone full circle from the Wenger, Ferguson days to rotating managers every couple of years and then back again.

Its about getting the right people into the right position with the right support. Pep has been something of the blueprint for that. A manager with enough clout and reputation that he becomes bankable and he shapes the entire club into his vision and the results tend to follow.

[Senator Clay Davis]

United are unique of course since they are a publicly traded company. Much as it sucks ass for the fans the goals of ownership aren't the same as a private owner and so the expectations are totally different. So they are naturally more impatient. I mean when Ole got the permanent job last year they were paying four managers (it was Moyes last year of his SIX year deal). Just a mess.

[devo22]

impatient? Oh please. They've given every manager post-SAF way more rope than they deserved.

[Senator Clay Davis]

The rope is CL. If the manager is in it, they stay.

Moyes - No CL (fired)
Van Gaal- CL, No CL (fired)
Mourinho - CL, CL, Probably No CL (fired)

Ole will probably be held to the same standard. Maybe, maybe he gets a bit more rope as a club legend, but if they don't even make Europa then he is definitely gone. It's a big loss of revenue for a public company, and someone has to go. Woodward seems invincible sorry to say.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

Mourinho squeezed 81 points out of that squad, which in hindsight looks like a minor miracle. I think he suggested it was his best coaching job and he very well might be right. I still contend though that as many issues as there are, they still shouldn't look this bad. The have a mediocre team, but they play like a bad one.

Originally Posted by Locke

Precisely, goes back to my point, they have a decent group of players but you're asking them to play a style that doesnt suit their strengths.

Is it a decent group of players though?

Jose spent $531M in his time in charge of United and then acted like they didn't give him any money to spend.

Ole has only really bought 3 guys so far (James, Maguire, and Wan-Bissaka) and I think for the most part they have looked like they fit in at United.

It's Mourinho's purchases that look lost.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Lukaku caught way too much heat IMO. He scored a career high in goals his first year there. He wasn't good last year, but who was? Luke Shaw won POTY for them despite being a defensive sieve of a team. As for Ole's signings, it has been like two months. A little early to say he's made three great signings. Maguire in particular is really tough to judge since Leicester replaced him with a guy who cost 75% less and they haven't missed a beat without Maguire.