Tories' reported plan for equalization changes provokes backlash

[moon]

Originally Posted by Flames in 07

Meanwhile Albertian work more hours than anywhere else in the country to pay for that sense of entitlement.

No no no. You don't get it, only Maritimers work hard, Albertans spend too much time with their noses in the air to work.

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by Flames in 07

What a great system, Equalization seems to make everyone happier doesn't it?

Everything about it is awful, you won't find an economist on this planet that will tell you this program has net benefits. It promotes under utilization of human resource, creates a sense of entitlement and removes incentive. What a great deal.

That's wrong. Wrong. And also wrong.

Will you pay a months rent for me for each economist that I find that will state that equalization has net benefits.

New Brunswick and Nova Scotia are doing whatever they can to improve their economies. The provincial governments are not sitting there saying "if we put the economy in the toilet and let everyone live off welfare, we can just wait for Alberta to send us some equalization payments". That ridiculous.

Moon: According to Statistics Canada Alberta spent 28 billion on 3 million people while the Nova Scotia government spent 8 billion on 1 million. Tell me what wasteful programs Nova Scotia needs to cut to get more in line with Alberta's example. (Btw - figures are from http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/govt08a.htm and http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/govt08c.htm)

[Flames in 07]

[quote=Devils'Advocate;720498]That's wrong. Wrong. And also wrong.

Will you pay a months rent for me for each economist that I find that will state that equalization has net benefits.

New Brunswick and Nova Scotia are doing whatever they can to improve their economies. The provincial governments are not sitting there saying "if we put the economy in the toilet and let everyone live off welfare, we can just wait for Alberta to send us some equalization payments". That ridiculous.



I didn't say that is what the NS and NB gov't say. Is the only way you can make a point by twisting what I say?

I said that people are unutilized. That's a freakin fact. I've been to the East enough to know that. I also know many people who feel they deserve UI over the winter because they are Canadian. That, my friend is a sense of entitlement.

No Economist on this planet will tell you that promoting the underutilization of resource is a good idea. Which is by definition what Equalization does.

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by Flames in 07

Meanwhile Albertian work more hours than anywhere else in the country to pay for that sense of entitlement.

Yeah, I read that study. The provinces that had higher employment rates obviously had more paid hours. However, when my uncle is unemployed, he's chopping wood of his woodlot so he and my relatives can heat their homes or my aunt volunteering at the schools or my mother working at the food bank. None of which is counting towards paid hours and were not added to the "study".

It's not like equalization payments are socialism where they are taking the money you earn and giving it to people in Nova Scotia who sit around all day collecting welfare and equalization payments so they can get big screen TVs. This is money earmarked for education so that the children get a decent education and can build a better economy. Or move to Alberta/Ontario as the case may be. The goal here is to provide health care and education; the basic building blocks necessary to build a decent economy.

[Flames in 07]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

Yeah, I read that study. The provinces that had higher employment rates obviously had more paid hours. However, when my uncle is unemployed, he's chopping wood of his woodlot so he and my relatives can heat their homes or my aunt volunteering at the schools or my mother working at the food bank. None of which is counting towards paid hours and were not added to the "study".

It's not like equalization payments are socialism where they are taking the money you earn and giving it to people in Nova Scotia who sit around all day collecting welfare and equalization payments so they can get big screen TVs. This is money earmarked for education so that the children get a decent education and can build a better economy. Or move to Alberta/Ontario as the case may be. The goal here is to provide health care and education; the basic building blocks necessary to build a decent economy.

I didn't say they were looking for big screen tv's. Once again, I said they are underutilized.

AB has a massive shortage of jobs, there are parts of this country that work 6 months a year because that is all they can do.

Seems to me one part of the country is under populated, and one part is over populated. Isn't that obvious to you?

And if they don't want to move, fine, but they shouldn't be subsidized if they don't.

[FlamesAddiction]

Alberta received equalization payments 8 straight times from 1957 to 1964. I'm sure no one complained then.


http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/cd...alization.html

[Flames in 07]

Meanwhile along the lines of self entitlement, NFLD gets a free pass and can exclude O&G from the equasion, Sask/NB/NS exect the same or they cry foul. No provincial gov't gives a crap about the greater good of the country, they care and screwing ther rules to benefit them the most. The whole program should be scrapped.

[Flames in 07]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Alberta received equalization payments 8 straight times from 1957 to 1964. I'm sure no one complained then.


http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/cd...alization.html

I would have if I was alive.

The program is rotten if AB is a giver or reciever. Hand outs are always bad in the long run.

[moon]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Alberta received equalization payments 8 straight times from 1957 to 1964. I'm sure no one complained then.


http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/cd...alization.html

Exactly. Which makes it even more frustrating to hear the other provinces complaining about what they get now.

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by Flames in 07

Meanwhile along the lines of self entitlement, NFLD gets a free pass and can exclude O&G from the equasion, Sask/NB/NS exect the same or they cry foul. No provincial gov't gives a crap about the greater good of the country, they care and screwing ther rules to benefit them the most. The whole program should be scrapped.

If it is scraped then the Martimes will have education levels and health care levels on par with third world countries. No if, ands or buts. There is no way that New Brunswick would be able to afford the doctors that they have. I'm sure you are perfectly okay with this. I'm not.

Yes, there are kinks regarding the oil and gas, but you want to throw away an essential building block of this nation so you can enjoy the riches while the poor provinces suffer.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by CrusaderPi

Here's the thing. The government of Canada doesn't release information about who pays in. I got the 11.1 billion number from an article in the Edmonton Journal early last year, but it isn't in the archive, at least not where I can find it.

I am working on some creative ways of showing you these numbers, but as of now, I've got nothing but a memory.

According to Wikipedia (I know), Alberta pays around $1.1 billion annually in equalization payments.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Alienation

[Flames in 07]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

If it is scraped then the Martimes will have education levels and health care levels on par with third world countries. No if, ands or buts. There is no way that New Brunswick would be able to afford the doctors that they have. I'm sure you are perfectly okay with this. I'm not.

Yes, there are kinks regarding the oil and gas, but you want to throw away an essential building block of this nation so you can enjoy the riches while the poor provinces suffer.

That is just proof that too many people live in NB.

Your tone implies that I'm selfish and don't care about the people of NB. Quite the opposite I care about the country and know what is best for the country. If NB can't support the population it shouldn't be there in the first place.

If you think about it, the expectation that others will be subsidized perpetually is about as selfish as it gets.

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by Flames in 07

If you think about it, the expectation that others will be subsidized perpetually is about as selfish as it gets.

Ridiculous. The goal of equalization is to PROVIDE THE BASIC BUILDING BLOCKS NECESSARY to develop an economy: education and health. So that these provinces can improve themselves. And several have. Between 2000 and 2004 many of the have-not provinces have improved their plight which is why we are at this point today.. Ontario and Alberta are saying, hey, those economies are improving, why not cut their transfers and the other provinces are saying, hey, we still need these transfers because our schools and hospitals are still lagging behind the other provinces.

[Flames in 07]

"The sense of entitlement is strong is that one"

You are totally missing my point. I'll try to use your words to make it clear

The best way to provide the basic building blocks necessary is to move the people to a location where they can provide for themselves. And Canada is better off because the country is being more efficient with its resources.

That's why this is a no-brainer from an economist standpoint. Equalization is synonomous with inefficient.

It's not like NB is turning a corner. their schools and hospitals needed to be propped up in the past, they do now, and will in the future. it's throwing good money after bad.

If people didn't have the sense of entitlement they would be thankful they lived in a country where they simply could move to improve their quality of life.

[Julio]

Apparently the Alberta government disagrees with Flames in 07:

"The man in charge of balancing the provincial government's books wants Saskatchewan's Conservative MPs to cut the spin.

Finance Minister Andrew Thomson also wants their leader to give Saskatchewan the real deal on how the federal government is going to change the equalization formula, and he now has a valuable ally to help him get what he wants.

Alberta Premier Ed Stelmach said Tuesday he's siding with Saskatchewan to have 100 per cent of non-renewable resource revenues excluded from the equalization formula. His support comes ahead of the premiers' meeting on Feb. 7 in Toronto to try to work out their differences before Prime Minister Stephen Harper announces in his budget how he will change the equalization formula.

"Clearly, Alberta supports the position of Newfoundland and Saskatchewan," said Alberta Intergovernmental Relations Minister Guy Boutilier.

"Non-renewable resources, that one day may dry up, should not be part of the equalization formula.""

From:http://www.canada.com/components/pri...d7c20c&k=82496

[Flames in 07]

Originally Posted by Julio

Apparently the Alberta government disagrees with Flames in 07:

"The man in charge of balancing the provincial government's books wants Saskatchewan's Conservative MPs to cut the spin.

Finance Minister Andrew Thomson also wants their leader to give Saskatchewan the real deal on how the federal government is going to change the equalization formula, and he now has a valuable ally to help him get what he wants.

Alberta Premier Ed Stelmach said Tuesday he's siding with Saskatchewan to have 100 per cent of non-renewable resource revenues excluded from the equalization formula. His support comes ahead of the premiers' meeting on Feb. 7 in Toronto to try to work out their differences before Prime Minister Stephen Harper announces in his budget how he will change the equalization formula.

"Clearly, Alberta supports the position of Newfoundland and Saskatchewan," said Alberta Intergovernmental Relations Minister Guy Boutilier.

"Non-renewable resources, that one day may dry up, should not be part of the equalization formula.""

From:http://www.canada.com/components/pri...d7c20c&k=82496

Maybe I'm missing something here, but this supports my position, they are looking to remove items from equalization math.

as you quote: "lberta Premier Ed Stelmach said Tuesday he's siding with Saskatchewan to have 100 per cent of non-renewable resource revenues excluded from the equalization formula."

[MarchHare]

Once again so many misconceptions about equalization.

Equalization does nothing at all that would allow lazy Maritimers to sit on their asses all winter.. Rather, it helps fund healthcare and education in the "have not" provinces such that they're able to provide services to the level of the national average.

And if anyone thinks that this provides no direct benefit to Alberta, think again. During this massive labour shortage, where do you think the majority of educated workers are coming from? Hundreds of thousands of Albertans were born and educated in other provinces yet now live, work, and pay taxes here. And unlike foreign immigrants, workers moving here from "have not" provinces don't need any extra paperwork or citizenship to start their new jobs immediately.

Also, why is it that people in Calgary and Edmonton complain bitterly about seeing their federal tax dollars paying for schools and hospitals in Winnipeg, Moncton, or Halifax, yet those same people don't complain at all about their provincial tax dollars paying for schools and hospitals in Fort Vermillion, Milk River, or Vegreville? Just as there are "have not" regions in Canada, so too are there "have not" regions in Alberta -- we just don't call them as such. Where's the outrage that taxpayers in Calgary, Edmonton, and Fort McMurray are footing the bill so rural Albertans can have healthcare and education that meets the provincial standard of quality?

[Lurch]

Where's the outrage that taxpayers in Calgary, Edmonton, and Fort MacMurray are footing the bill so rural Albertans can have healthcare and education that meets the provincial standard of quality?

I think its greedy to express greed more than one step at a time. I think with time Alberta will get there. I myself canceled sending Christmas gifts back to my family in SK this year - the money was earned in AB and it should stay here, damn it. I also canceled my donations to the Heart and Stroke fund because I found out they do some research in the Maritimes - just doing my part to help push Alberta towards the bottom of the charitable donations list.

[RedHot25]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

Also, why is it that people in Calgary and Edmonton complain bitterly about seeing their federal tax dollars paying for schools and hospitals in Winnipeg, Moncton, or Halifax, yet those same people don't complain at all about their provincial tax dollars paying for schools and hospitals in Fort Vermillion, Milk River, or Vegreville? Just as there are "have not" regions in Canada, so too are there "have not" regions in Alberta -- we just don't call them as such. Where's the outrage that taxpayers in Calgary, Edmonton, and Fort McMurray are footing the bill so rural Albertans can have healthcare and education that meets the provincial standard of quality?

Furthermore, to take this to a bit of an extreme, but to get the point across....should not people be outraged, that potentially, federal tax dollars from Winniepg, Moncton or Halifax could theoretically be paying for schools or hospitals in Alberta?

(I know that this is a bit of an extreme example, but still...).

[Finner]

I'm not sure where you guys are getting your numbers about according to this article :

http://calsun.canoe.ca/News/Alberta/...93696-sun.html

Alberta is a net contributor to equalization of 14 billion, sending 31 billion per year and receiving 17 billion back.

Also i would say the majority of albertans have no problem sending money to the maritimes to garuntee things such as healthcare and education. My primary problem lies in the absolutely monstrous payments that are given to quebec, 5-8 billion per year if my memory serves correctly. For a province with a wealth of natural resources, they sure have managed to mis manage them p*** poorly, and continueing to threaten seperation at every turn, while raking in 1500$ - 2500$ from every man woman and child in alberta. (The approximate cost per person in alberta of equalization to quebec alone).