Tories' reported plan for equalization changes provokes backlash

[Claeren]

Is Hydro-power considered natural resource wealth?



Claeren.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Hakan

Unless you of course count the benefits of having a stable federal system and relatively universal levels of services between provinces.

But yeah, those are only minor benefits.

What do you see as the benefits to Albertans of having universal levels of service between provinces other than it is the "right" thing or "moral" thing to have in the country?

Not being a jerk just wondering if you see any benfits to this other than it is what is best for our fellow Canadians.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by CrusaderPi

In case anyone is wondering Alberta contributed roughly 11.1 billion to the equalization pool out of a total of 11.5 billion in 2006. This year Alberta will be handing over 14 billion (ish) for which we will see no benefit.

It seems like a lot of the equalization issues stem out of whether or not you believe you're a Canadian first or an Albertan first. If you're an Albertan first, then of course it should p**s you off that 'your' wealth is being stolen. If you're a Canadian first, then its just spreading the good (great) fortune of oil/hot economy around to everyone.

Either way, I doubt the system will drastically change much under this new policy... anyone have any idea on what exactly the new rules will do? How much do Sask/Newfoundland stand to lose in payments?

[moon]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

It seems like a lot of the equalization issues stem out of whether or not you believe you're a Canadian first or an Albertan first. If you're an Albertan first, then of course it should p**s you off that 'your' wealth is being stolen. If you're a Canadian first, then its just spreading the good (great) fortune of oil/hot economy around to everyone.

I don't think that Alberta's wealth is being stolen. I don't like seeing other provinces ****ing their money away in poorly run programs or excessive public hand-outs and then have them recieve money from Alberta. Especially when I think the money could be used in this province for better uses than it does in the have-nots in many instances.

I can't say I have all that much sympathy for those in the Maritimes being unable to maintain a decent economy or Quebec ensuring everybody and their dog gets hand-outs.

I also find it a bit annoying that after all the money Newfounland has recieved the outcry from its citizens when it appears they might not get special treatment for their Oil. Seems like perhaps it isn't only Albertans putting their province ahead of the country

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Why would there be hostile borders?

Also...I don't think it would be to hard to convince Norther BC to join us. That way we could have access to the ocean.

Hostile in the sense that I see the hostility Canadians, and Albertans probably in particular, show towards Quebec separatists, and I think everyone else in the country would take the same attitude towards us. That would lead directly to "which party will be tougher on the Nation of Alberta" as the central issue in Canadian federal elections for at least a generation. They'd have us by the balls.

I don't know anything about a breaking up of British Columbia

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by moon

I can't say I have all that much sympathy for those in the Maritimes being unable to maintain a decent economy...

I hear that from a lot of Albertans. Born in a land rich in oil and other resources and then stick their nose up in the air and say it's easy for other provinces to maintain a great economy.

Born and raised in Nova Scotia, I have seen a lot of people struggling to get by.... working two or three jobs at minimum wage to raise a family. It's very easy to say "Build industries! Develop an economy! If you can't do it, then you're lazy!" It's much harder to do. Halifax has a dozen universities and colleges, but Nova Scotia's biggest export to this day is educated youth that spread out across Canada (and the world) because there are no jobs for them. The Nova Scotia government has enticed phone centers to come with huge tax breaks hoping they would stay in the province, but the gravy train is about up and the word is that the call centres are planning on pulling out to go to India. They tried developing a film industry there with moderate success (Deloris Clairborne, Shipping News), but the rising Canadian dollar nipped that in the bud. Private industries have tried locating computer industries there... I mean they have educated computer programmers in the province. I even went back for a year to see how things were working and the company, knowing that the supply of programmers was so great, figured the best thing to do was to hire the best and burn them out, demanding 30 hours of overtime on top of the regular 40hour work week. There were times that I was asked to work from Friday at 8am to Monday at 5pm. Straight. Then when people leave because they are burnt out, they just hire more and and burn them out too. So programmers leave for greener pastures in Ontario or the U.S.. So the economy isn't so great.. a lot of people scraping out an existance, while the Albertans stick their nose in the air and say they have no sympathy for them because it's easy to have a great economy. ****ES ME OFF.

[Hakan]

Originally Posted by moon

What do you see as the benefits to Albertans of having universal levels of service between provinces other than it is the "right" thing or "moral" thing to have in the country?

Not being a jerk just wondering if you see any benfits to this other than it is what is best for our fellow Canadians.

What is best for Canada is best for Alberta in the end. Or do you think that having vastly disproportionate standards of living across the Federation would be a good thing for Alberta? I see that as unstable. It would limit FDI, deplete the exchange rate, lead to vast amounts of economic and other inefficiences in have not provinces. Either way, you would be footing the bill in one way or another.

But of course, lets keep it down to a simple issue of our money their problems. That sure makes us all feel better about ourselves.

[Julio]

A couple of things:

First, it isn't exactly 'money from Alberta' or 'Ontario' going into equalization, it's federal tax money that in theory comes from all areas, than is redistributed to the provinces unevenly based on a formula that makes the Caramilk secret look like childsplay.

As far as the changing of the formula, I think the big beef is that NF and NS got it changed because they were afraid of losing the guaranteed revenue from the feds. Both Libs and Cons have caved on this, because they know that the seats in those provinces are up for grabs. This has made a few other provinces, of which Sask is the most vocal, ****ed that they didn't get the same deal. I think the main beef the Sask Gov't has is that the Cons both lambasted the Libs on it when they were in opposition, saying they would do the same deal for Sask, then campaigned on it during the last election, and now apparently are breaking that promise.

As a former Sask resident, I hope that an ongoing strong economy renders the whole argument moot, but looking at these figures here: http://www.mapleleafweb.com/features...on/impact.html
I wonder how Manitoba gets 20% of it's revenue from equalization and the Sask gov't goes from 0% to under 10%. Even if Sask got all the $ it feels it "deserves", it would still get hundreds of millions less than Man, a provence of similar in area and population.

[Julio]

Originally Posted by Claeren

Is Hydro-power considered natural resource wealth?



Claeren.

I don't believe so...this is partly why Manitoba and Quebec can get so much in equalization payments despite strong hydro power exports.

[Hakan]

Originally Posted by Julio

I don't believe so...this is partly why Manitoba and Quebec can get so much in equalization payments despite strong hydro power exports.

Well hydro currently isn't calculated as a part of fiscal capacity because it is considered a natural resource. Under the new agreement 50% of hydro revenues would be calculated.

Of course, there are still big problems with this. Namely, the provinces significantly under charge for hydro power. Here in BC, BC Hydro could get 4 to 6 times as much for their electricity. Why don't they? Well it provides a competitive advantage to electricity dependent industries such as aluminum smelting.

The big issue will be, will hydro be calculated as a present value or from its economic value?

[Barnes]

Originally Posted by CrusaderPi

Not for Alberta they aren't. I'm pretty sure we could set up a fairly stable national government on our own. As far as universal levels between the provinces goes. Well, a thank you every now and again would be nice.

You could indeed until regions in the new country of Alberta complain that they pay too much to the have not regions, and those regions complain that they don't recieve enough support. At least with Quebec's separatism, the argument that they are an aggregation of persons of the same ethnic family, often speaking the same language or cognate languages, ie a "nation" is valid. Alberta shares the same language and history as the rest of English speaking Canada. The Alberta separation arguement rests on greed alone and not the idea that they are truly different.

[Julio]

Hakan, non renewable natural resources ARE included in 'fiscal capacity, except in the cases of NS and NF, where their oil and gas resources are not because of their side deals. This is the heart of the matter, that BC's gas or Sask's potash are included but the offshore O&G isn't. As for hydro, according to Wikipedia's article here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equalization_payments
'water power rentals' are included, but I don't think any profits to, say Manitoba Hydro for export sales are.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

I hear that from a lot of Albertans. Born in a land rich in oil and other resources and then stick their nose up in the air and say it's easy for other provinces to maintain a great economy.

Born and raised in Nova Scotia, I have seen a lot of people struggling to get by.... working two or three jobs at minimum wage to raise a family. It's very easy to say "Build industries! Develop an economy! If you can't do it, then you're lazy!" It's much harder to do. Halifax has a dozen universities and colleges, but Nova Scotia's biggest export to this day is educated youth that spread out across Canada (and the world) because there are no jobs for them. The Nova Scotia government has enticed phone centers to come with huge tax breaks hoping they would stay in the province, but the gravy train is about up and the word is that the call centres are planning on pulling out to go to India. They tried developing a film industry there with moderate success (Deloris Clairborne, Shipping News), but the rising Canadian dollar nipped that in the bud. Private industries have tried locating computer industries there... I mean they have educated computer programmers in the province. I even went back for a year to see how things were working and the company, knowing that the supply of programmers was so great, figured the best thing to do was to hire the best and burn them out, demanding 30 hours of overtime on top of the regular 40hour work week. There were times that I was asked to work from Friday at 8am to Monday at 5pm. Straight. Then when people leave because they are burnt out, they just hire more and and burn them out too. So programmers leave for greener pastures in Ontario or the U.S.. So the economy isn't so great.. a lot of people scraping out an existance, while the Albertans stick their nose in the air and say they have no sympathy for them because it's easy to have a great economy. ****ES ME OFF.

I am not saying it is easy to have a successful economy or that they are lazy but seeing that not everyone in Alberta is drinking champagne and eating caviar while driving on our gold paved roads I find it hard to see money going to other provinces when I see people in Alberta that could use it and areas that Alberta could spend it within the province.

When I hear people talk about how Albertans stick their noses in the air when they suggest that they are not doing back flips about the money transferred to others provinces it ****ES ME OFF.

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by moon

When I hear people talk about how Albertans stick their noses in the air when they suggest that they are not doing back flips about the money transferred to others provinces it ****ES ME OFF.

And there is the difference between you and I. *I* want the federal government to take Ontario's money, *MY* money and give it to the places that need better schools and hospitals. There needs to be an equal level of services across all provinces. If we told New Brunswick that they were on their own for health care, it would be third world service. Which is what you want and I don't.

[CrusaderPi]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

And there is the difference between you and I. *I* want the federal government to take Ontario's money, *MY* money and give it to the places that need better schools and hospitals. There needs to be an equal level of services across all provinces. If we told New Brunswick that they were on their own for health care, it would be third world service. Which is what you want and I don't.

That's pretty easy for you to say, considering Ontario too is a net beneficiary of money that has been equalized out of Alberta (as of 2003 - oddly the government of Canada doesn't tell you who is contributing only who is taking).


BTW, you're welcome.

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by CrusaderPi

That's pretty easy for you to say, considering Ontario too is a net beneficiary of money that has been equalized out of Alberta.

You still haven't cited your source on the 11.1 of 11.5 equalization payments coming from Alberta.

[CrusaderPi]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

You still haven't cited your source on the 11.1 of 11.5 equalization payments coming from Alberta.

Here's the thing. The government of Canada doesn't release information about who pays in. I got the 11.1 billion number from an article in the Edmonton Journal early last year, but it isn't in the archive, at least not where I can find it.

I am working on some creative ways of showing you these numbers, but as of now, I've got nothing but a memory.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

And there is the difference between you and I. *I* want the federal government to take Ontario's money, *MY* money and give it to the places that need better schools and hospitals. There needs to be an equal level of services across all provinces. If we told New Brunswick that they were on their own for health care, it would be third world service. Which is what you want and I don't.

I am not saying that I don't want the money to go to help these other provinces build better schools and have hospitals, but I think that despite the assumptions of many other Canadians Albertans can use that money as well. When I then hear stories about how some of the provinces are spending their money and some of the amounts of public handouts it ****es me off that we are sending money to these same provinces. And when I then hear that Newfoundland doesn't want their oil revenues included and then complain if someone suggests maybe it should it ****es me off even more.

I am not saying stop the payments but I am not going to be elated to hear about the stupid spending habits of the have not provinces and whinning coming form them and not think why not give that money to the people who could use it in Alberta if the other provinces want to act like that.

[Flames in 07]

What a great system, Equalization seems to make everyone happier doesn't it?

Everything about it is awful, you won't find an economist on this planet that will tell you this program has net benefits. It promotes under utilization of human resource, creates a sense of entitlement and removes incentive. What a great deal.

[Flames in 07]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

I hear that from a lot of Albertans. Born in a land rich in oil and other resources and then stick their nose up in the air and say it's easy for other provinces to maintain a great economy.

Born and raised in Nova Scotia, I have seen a lot of people struggling to get by.... working two or three jobs at minimum wage to raise a family. It's very easy to say "Build industries! Develop an economy! If you can't do it, then you're lazy!" It's much harder to do. Halifax has a dozen universities and colleges, but Nova Scotia's biggest export to this day is educated youth that spread out across Canada (and the world) because there are no jobs for them. The Nova Scotia government has enticed phone centers to come with huge tax breaks hoping they would stay in the province, but the gravy train is about up and the word is that the call centres are planning on pulling out to go to India. They tried developing a film industry there with moderate success (Deloris Clairborne, Shipping News), but the rising Canadian dollar nipped that in the bud. Private industries have tried locating computer industries there... I mean they have educated computer programmers in the province. I even went back for a year to see how things were working and the company, knowing that the supply of programmers was so great, figured the best thing to do was to hire the best and burn them out, demanding 30 hours of overtime on top of the regular 40hour work week. There were times that I was asked to work from Friday at 8am to Monday at 5pm. Straight. Then when people leave because they are burnt out, they just hire more and and burn them out too. So programmers leave for greener pastures in Ontario or the U.S.. So the economy isn't so great.. a lot of people scraping out an existance, while the Albertans stick their nose in the air and say they have no sympathy for them because it's easy to have a great economy. ****ES ME OFF.

It's not develop it or your lazy, it's develop it, but if you can't move ... and be thankful you live in a country where it is that simple.

Equalization means, for many people work when you can, but there's a nice comfy cushion for you to fall on if you cant work 40 hours a week or 12 months a year.

A good percentage of PEI shuts down for the winter and they ride the pogey wagon. IE READ: they think they are entitled to a hand out.

Meanwhile Albertian work more hours than anywhere else in the country to pay for that sense of entitlement.