Brad Treliving “surprised” Mangiapane isn’t signed

[1991 Canadian]

Mangiapane doesn’t have arb rights and put up a very typical year. He pretty much has to take what he’s given.

That said, his goals per 60 was 7th on the Flames last year, on a team that scored a ton. He didn’t get much powerplay time. Had good possession stats. I thought he drove offensive production when he was on the ice, especially in the later half of the year.

It is shame the Flames don’t have much cap flexibility this year, because Mangiapane would be a guy I’d like to see locked up for 3-4 years. It would not surprise me in the slightest if he put up a 15-20 goal season. If you could lock up his prime years with a AAV that starts with a 1, that could be some good value done the road.

[ComixZone]

When talking about Mangiapane, this is worth noting:

@DarrenWHaynes
Sep 2
Fun Fact: Andrew Magiapane’s eight ES goals post-all-star break last year was just one less than Connor McDavid and Nathan MacKinnon, the same as Steven Stamkos, Mark Scheifele and Sidney Crosby, two more than Alex Ovechkin and Johnny Gaudreau, and twice as many as Brayden Point.

I can understand why Mangiapane may be after a bit more than the typical 850K contract. He really came on in the second half of the season. I do wonder what the hold up is, but regardless - hopefully it gets resolved quickly as his game is on the rise.

[cam_wmh]

Is my math accurate, in the Flames would save $300k in cap space if Quine and Czarnik were buried for the first month?

$2m(1 month of 7)

[Superfraggle]

Originally Posted by cam_wmh

Is my math accurate, in the Flames would save $300k in cap space if Quine and Czarnik were buried for the first month?

$2m(1 month of 7)

Didn't check how cap space is calculated, but even it it's right, it only works if they aren't replaced. Running with only 12 forwards is unwise, as you can't predict when a player will get sick or hurt and it takes time to recall players who are in different cities.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Yeah that's on me. Certainly implies what you took from it, but it wasn't my intention.

I'm just saying the guy is known to be dogged and thorough so I'm guessing he has a multiple option plan in the works that will get him cap compliant.

He certainly not just picking up the phone in two weeks when Tkachuk signs and starting the process then.

I have no doubt he is exploring every angle possible.

I also imagine there's a scenario which is entirely internal. That is, run with reduced roster size, send certain guys down to save cap room etc. I have already said how much I hate the reduced roster size idea, but at this point I do believe you need a fall back option that doesn't depend on someone else.

Just my opinion, I wish he would make the best deal possible before we get too deep into camp. Whether its Jankowski, Frolik or something else. And then get the Tkachuk deal done.

Surely Flames must know within $500K of where a Tkachuk deal will land by now? They might be further apart than that, but I have to believe they can at least see the finish line.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

I have no doubt he is exploring every angle possible.

I also imagine there's a scenario which is entirely internal. That is, run with reduced roster size, send certain guys down to save cap room etc. I have already said how much I hate the reduced roster size idea, but at this point I do believe you need a fall back option that doesn't depend on someone else.

Just my opinion, I wish he would make the best deal possible before we get too deep into camp. Whether its Jankowski, Frolik or something else. And then get the Tkachuk deal done.

Surely Flames must know within $500K of where a Tkachuk deal will land by now? They might be further apart than that, but I have to believe they can at least see the finish line.

Probably if the term was agreed to. But for all we know term is the deciding factor. And the range of salary even between a 5 year deal and a 7 year deal could be in the millions.

I think the biggest problem with moving a guy out now is that you might end up moving a guy out you didn’t have to, or worse, moving a guy out and finding out you have to make another move on top of it.

If you move Frolik, and only needed $1M in space, you made a mistake. If you move Jankowski and find you need to move another $1M in space, you made a mistake. I think both situations are worse than potentially reduced value for what will already be low-value moves. But that’s just me.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

...Just my opinion, I wish he would make the best deal possible before we get too deep into camp. Whether its Jankowski, Frolik or something else. And then get the Tkachuk deal done.

Surely Flames must know within $500K of where a Tkachuk deal will land by now? They might be further apart than that, but I have to believe they can at least see the finish line.

This follows a common rationale that the best deals are made sooner than later. How often do we see the tired (and almost certainly untrue) trope that "if X could be signed/moved for that amount/return, then it would have happened by now"?

I just don't think that we know or see clearly enough of the inner workings of negotiation and hockey operations to know when is the best time to make a deal. There could be a lot of other contributing factors about which we can only guess which might affect the timing of trades and signings at this time of year. I don't pretend to know what they are, but I am also not convinced that all the best deals were to be clinched six weeks ago.

[Monahammer]

TBF I could see the issue being term:
- Tre and co seem to avoid 1 year deals unless it's like a PTO or a tryout
- Mangiapane's camp might (rightly or wrongly) believe that this season will be pivotal for breadboys future earnings potential, and might be only offering to sign one year.

This hold out seems the most likely to me, though I will admit that I know absolutely nothing of the actual negotiation. If it is about money on the mangiapane side, I think it's a mistake to risk a crucial development season over a couple 100k at most.

This would most adequately also explain tre's "confusion". I doubt he would be so confused at a young player asking for more money than they are worth (he did just do multiple years of dealings with Bennett after all) but he may be stunned that a young player who is still very much on the fringe would turn down multi-year guaranteed NHL money on the gamble he does better this year.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Probably if the term was agreed to. But for all we know term is the deciding factor. And the range of salary even between a 5 year deal and a 7 year deal could be in the millions.

I think the biggest problem with moving a guy out now is that you might end up moving a guy out you didn’t have to, or worse, moving a guy out and finding out you have to make another move on top of it.

If you move Frolik, and only needed $1M in space, you made a mistake. If you move Jankowski and find you need to move another $1M in space, you made a mistake. I think both situations are worse than potentially reduced value for what will already be low-value moves. But that’s just me.

I agree the value in all these potential deals are not equal and we don't know how different obviously.

And while I doubt term has been agreed to, I imagine each camp can predict the number for 5, 6, 7 years to within $500K. And Treliving better have an idea by now as to which of those terms he can afford.

You just don't want to be in a situation where you are one of a few teams looking to move salary, the market is moving away from you, and the clock to be salary cap compliant is ticking.

[The Cobra]

Maggy could just as easily be out of the NHL. Unless he's holding out for a 1-way deal (which I think he deserves), I'm surprised he's not signed too.

[looooob]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

When talking about Mangiapane, this is worth noting:



I can understand why Mangiapane may be after a bit more than the typical 850K contract. He really came on in the second half of the season. I do wonder what the hold up is, but regardless - hopefully it gets resolved quickly as his game is on the rise.

yeah but it was 3 less than Kevin Labanc

[FlamesAddiction]

Maybe he will pull a Giordano and go the KHL for a bigger salary and to prove he deserves a 1-way contract.

But his salary and term should be very straight forward at this point. If he is overplaying his hand, I would not at all be upset if they let him stew for the year. He has great upside, but as of right now, his contribution is at a replacement level.

[Reggie Dunlop]

He wants more bread.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Reggie Dunlop

He wants more bread.

[Jaybo]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

When talking about Mangiapane, this is worth noting:



I can understand why Mangiapane may be after a bit more than the typical 850K contract. He really came on in the second half of the season. I do wonder what the hold up is, but regardless - hopefully it gets resolved quickly as his game is on the rise.

Not a CBA expert but couldn't they put in some bonus clauses in case this production continues? You get $850,000 but if you out-score Ovechkin at ES, you get a BIG bonus!

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Jaybo

Not a CBA expert but couldn't they put in some bonus clauses in case this production continues? You get $850,000 but if you out-score Ovechkin at ES, you get a BIG bonus!

The only contracts on which bonuses are allowed are ELCs and +35 UFA deals. There are no bonuses on all other standard playing contracts.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

The only contracts on which bonuses are allowed are ELCs and +35 UFA deals. There are no bonuses on all other standard playing contracts.

The maximum bonus potential counts towards the cap as well correct?

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

I agree the value in all these potential deals are not equal and we don't know how different obviously.

And while I doubt term has been agreed to, I imagine each camp can predict the number for 5, 6, 7 years to within $500K. And Treliving better have an idea by now as to which of those terms he can afford.

You just don't want to be in a situation where you are one of a few teams looking to move salary, the market is moving away from you, and the clock to be salary cap compliant is ticking.

I'm guessing the Tkachuk camp is still stuck on a 5 year contract, and that doesn't work leaving a lot of guess work as to where they stand.

If he was within the $500K area you suggest he'd have no reason to wait. But he's clearly indicating the differentials are course changing depending on which way they go.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I'm guessing the Tkachuk camp is still stuck on a 5 year contract, and that doesn't work leaving a lot of guess work as to where they stand.

If he was within the $500K area you suggest he'd have no reason to wait. But he's clearly indicating the differentials are course changing depending on which way they go.

I don’t think they’re within $500K but that both camps can estimate where they will end up, within $500K depending on the term.

Just a guess obviously but I suspect most people here have their own estimate.

But as you say, maybe they can’t get him off of a specific contract length.

[Roof-Daddy]

Good grief.

Just sign the godamn contract and get your ass to training camp on time. Unbelievable