Can Ryan take on Backlund’s role; is Backlund who we trade?

[Scroopy Noopers]

I don’t see a scenario, other then the other team needing cap space to avoid penalty, where the Flames retain part of Froliks salary.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by HighLifeMan

That's a terrible deal for Calgary - not only are we retaining salary, we are also adding a mid round pick to move a very productive middle six forward?

Here is a better idea. Waive Czarnik and put Valimaki on the LTIR. This gives Treliving 8.7-8.9M to sign both Tkachuk and Mangiapane and run a 22 man roster.

Frolik makes this team better - and is one of the better options to move up the lineup should/when injuries occur. A Frolik trade at this point seems like far to much of a headache due to his salary and NTC. He is also not a player you should be giving up assets to move. Finding an alternative way to make the cap room work seems far more ideal at this point.

Fine, make it a better deal for the Flames if you can.

My only point was that Frolik is in fact quite tradeable, without the Flames giving up significant assets to do it. I was addressing the posters that think we need to move bigger assets, like Backlund, to solve the cap issues.

But we don't, that's the point.

[powderjunkie]

The interesting thing with Frolik is that he could garner a decent return at the deadline (barring injury or really poor play). I would think a bubble team like Vancouver or Montreal could use his presence in their middle six.

Frolik for Dale Weise (50% retained = 1.175 hit, expiring) and a 4th

Obviously it's primarily for the 3.2M in cap space, but Weise would be a decent press box guy that can slot into the bottom 6 as needed. Montreal gets a significant upgrade with the potential of recovering a 4th or better at the deadline.

A similar 6/7 defender would probably be better, but I don't see any expirings that fit the bill.

[DeluxeMoustache]

^ the reason people are talking about Frolik now is not related to the deadline, it is related to signing Tkachuk and being cap compliant to start the season.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

^ the reason people are talking about Frolik now is not related to the deadline, it is related to signing Tkachuk and being cap compliant to start the season.

Well you can’t just quit halfway through the post...

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

^ the reason people are talking about Frolik now is not related to the deadline, it is related to signing Tkachuk and being cap compliant to start the season.

I understand; my point is that there is a strong chance he returns more value then to a team that acquires him now (than what they pay to get him now).

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers

I don’t see a scenario, other then the other team needing cap space to avoid penalty, where the Flames retain part of Froliks salary.

Flames have not ever retained salary in a trade IIRC, so you're likely right.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Flames have not ever retained salary in a trade IIRC, so you're likely right.

I think when you're in your winning window, the overall philosophy should be never retaining salary. Every penny is valuable. I think you pay almost any price to alleviate dead cap space.

When you're out of contention, selling off players and doing deals for picks and prospects, retain as much salary as possible on as many deals as possible.

[Dajazz]

When I was younger I was told there are no stupid questions.

I was lied to.

[Icon]

Originally Posted by HighLifeMan

Here is a better idea. Waive Czarnik and put Valimaki on the LTIR. This gives Treliving 8.7-8.9M to sign both Tkachuk and Mangiapane and run a 22 man roster.

Frolik makes this team better - and is one of the better options to move up the lineup should/when injuries occur. A Frolik trade at this point seems like far to much of a headache due to his salary and NTC. He is also not a player you should be giving up assets to move. Finding an alternative way to make the cap room work seems far more ideal at this point.

I agree with everything here. Problem is it seems like (from his agent) he isn't happy here. So if that's the case, maybe it's worth trading him to:
- remove a potential issue from the room
- give space to sign Tkachuk, Mangiapane, even other FA's?
- open up a spot to win at camp for the young guys


I think it's just prudence at this point to see if his return improves based on other teams surprise needs through camp.

[CsInMyBlood]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

The point of this discussion was never meant to be “does Backlund suck” and/or “do we dump him for cap space.”

I made two assertions:
- 1. We need to acquire cap space.
- 2. Trading Frolik would really only get us cap space; where as trading Backlund would get cap space plus a usable asset in return.

I then posed two questions:
- 1. Do we have a player that can fill enough of Backlund’s role to make moving Backlund out feasible.
- 2. Is Ryan that player?

Some of the points I had hoped were implied within the context of my post:
- Backlund should be a great #3C, but we’re forced to deploy him as an “average” #2C.
- Ryan is also a great #3C; while he would be a below average #2C, is it far enough from where Backlund is that it makes the move too risky?

For clarity, I really like Backlund, but I consider him a Pittsburgh-era Jordan Staal. Probably the best #3C in the league, but doesn’t have enough offensive ability to be strong #2C.

Second lines need to be almost as much about offence as first lines are. Not every team can have a Bergeron, (Peter) Forsberg, Fedorov or Datsyuk that can shut teams down without sacrificing offence. You can’t ice a one-line offensive threat anymore. The second line has to be a threat to score almost as often as the first line is. That’s how you escape shutdown hockey. If a team shuts your first line down, your second line wins the game. When teams adjust to focus on your second line, now your first line is able to operate.

I think we have a very complimentary second line that has a very good top-line winger, an average third line winger and potentially the best third line C in the game. That’s a second line that looks like 1A 2B 3B, when it should be really be nothing but 1A/Bs and 2As.

So your whole problem with Backlund being considered a second line center is his lack of offense.

Yet he finished 40th in even strength points among centers. Lemme do some math here. 31 teams, so that places him 9th when you take out 31. But wait, Draisaitl, Lindholm and Nyquist are listed as centers ahead of him and didn't actually play much center, if any. Maybe even more guys but that's what I knew from skimming the list quickly.

So after you take out the top 31 and then these three guys who didn't actually play center all season Backlund places 6th. So not only in 2nd line production territory but at the top of the list.

2 even strength points less than Patrice Bergeron. 5 less than our own Elias Lindholm. 6 less points than Niklas Backstrom.

It's really getting annoying reading that Backlund doesn't have the offense compared to other 2nd line centers because in reality he put up more than most of them, nevermind that he starts his shifts in the D zone and goes up against other teams top lines every night.

I've seen Textcritic bring this up a couple of times before. I know it will have to be brought up many more times in the future.

Backlund is criminally underrated for everything he does and brings to this team.

Derek Ryan is a nice player but simply cannot touch Backlund in any facet of the game.

[Steve Bozek]

Given Ryan’s age there’s a moderately good chance he hit his peak performance level last year, and we’ve seen the best we’re ever going to get from him

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Steve Bozek

Given Ryan’s age there’s a moderately good chance he hit his peak performance level last year, and we’ve seen the best we’re ever going to get from him

I could see it, but Ryan’s not the type of player who seems in jeopardy of falling off of a cliff in the next two years. I think it is a good bet that he keeps pace with his performance from last year. Maybe he falls back a little in production, but not much I warrant.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ForeverFlameFan]

Why would we trade the player that bleeds red? Backlund is one of the heart-and-soul guys on this team and will be a permanent middle 6 center for years to come. No way am I moving on from him.

[VilleN]

Originally Posted by ForeverFlameFan

Why would we trade the player that bleeds red? Backlund is one of the heart-and-soul guys on this team and will be a permanent middle 6 center for years to come. No way am I moving on from him.

It’s all a bunch of nonsense. It won’t happen. I honestly don’t understand the logic of moving Backlund for cap space when there are several other options. Might as well move Monahan, even more cap space!

[TheScorpion]

Originally Posted by Steve Bozek

Given Ryan’s age there’s a moderately good chance he hit his peak performance level last year, and we’ve seen the best we’re ever going to get from him

Thing with Ryan is he doesn't have a ton of miles on him. He's barely at 200 NHL games.

[Steve Bozek]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

Thing with Ryan is he doesn't have a ton of miles on him. He's barely at 200 NHL games.

I like Ryan, but I think putting him into Backlund’s role ian overestimate of his abilities. I’ll be very happy if he’s able to perform at the same level as the last half of the 2018-19 season.

[TheScorpion]

Originally Posted by Steve Bozek

I like Ryan, but I think putting him into Backlund’s role ian overestimate of his abilities. I’ll be very happy if he’s able to perform at the same level as the last half of the 2018-19 season.

Hey, for sure. I don't think it's reasonable to expect him to improve, either, and nothing I've said suggests anything of the sort.

By no means should he be considered a suitable replacement for Backlund. But -- I'd wager he's the perfect complement to Backlund. And because of his lesser history, I wonder if we see a later decline, similar to the Giordano trajectory.

[cam_wmh]

Originally Posted by CsInMyBlood

So your whole problem with Backlund being considered a second line center is his lack of offense.

Yet he finished 40th in even strength points among centers. Lemme do some math here. 31 teams, so that places him 9th when you take out 31. But wait, Draisaitl, Lindholm and Nyquist are listed as centers ahead of him and didn't actually play much center, if any. Maybe even more guys but that's what I knew from skimming the list quickly.

So after you take out the top 31 and then these three guys who didn't actually play center all season Backlund places 6th. So not only in 2nd line production territory but at the top of the list.

2 even strength points less than Patrice Bergeron. 5 less than our own Elias Lindholm. 6 less points than Niklas Backstrom.

It's really getting annoying reading that Backlund doesn't have the offense compared to other 2nd line centers because in reality he put up more than most of them, nevermind that he starts his shifts in the D zone and goes up against other teams top lines every night.

I've seen Textcritic bring this up a couple of times before. I know it will have to be brought up many more times in the future.

Backlund is criminally underrated for everything he does and brings to this team.

Derek Ryan is a nice player but simply cannot touch Backlund in any facet of the game.

Jesus. That was a, take him out to the woodshed, burial of a post.

[Jiri Hrdina]

I think Backlund is also one of the highly regarded individuals on the team in terms of the front office. This isn't a guy the organization wants to trade.