You never want to let the "people" decide. "People" are idiots. When elected representatives abrogate their duty to govern, stupidity ensues - see Kingdom, United for reference.
I'm going to disagree with the statement that "people are idiots" LOL.
The "average person" is an idiot.
I agree that elected representatives need to do what is best, not what the majority of the people who voted for you want you to do. For the very reason you mentioned.
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You never want to let the "people" decide. "People" are idiots. When elected representatives abrogate their duty to govern, stupidity ensues - see Kingdom, United for reference.
IMO this and voluntary opinion polls are similar. You typically see the negative side win because they are more up in arms.
I actually kind of agree. The first thing that I thought when Nenshi stepped up to the mic and lead with "this is a great deal for the city" I thought it was a sales pitch and probably not a great deal.
Did they do their homework here? Sure doesn't look like it. Will it work out as perfect as planned? Probably not.
I have to say, I disagree with all of these points.
For one, Nenshi has not been easily swayed on the arena. So for him to come out and say it's a great deal has pretty positive implications.
As far as homework goes, this has been hundreds of hours and many years in the making. What's enough? Where is the cut-off where people accept that yeah, the work has been done, and it's acceptable? How many more hours? How many more meetings, or committees, or years is it going to take to get to a point where people are happy with the work? If not now, I can't imagine ever.
Will it work out as perfectly as planned? With CMLC on board, I would say "probably" is closer to "probably not." What the CMLC did with the library was truly incredible, they know their stuff, and their involvement means the project is in exceptional hands. The new library is pretty much as close to "perfect" as you can get. On time, on budget, and that's despite delays due to things out of their control.
We have the right people involved. The homework is done. The deal is fair. What's left?
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Glad to see this is finally coming to a conclusion, I hope they approve it on Monday and we can finally move on from this.
Enough with this public consultation nonsense. We've had years of discussion and rhetoric on this subject. Members of council were elected to do a job which includes making difficult decisions... do it. Public consultation has a time and place, this isn't it.
Finally, all this discussion on the operating budget shortfalls and it not being the right time to invest in such a project demonstrates a lack of understanding of the difference between operations and capital improvement budgets. This isn't personal finance, they're not taking money out of the chequing account and going hungry to buy a shiny new toy.
I'm going to disagree with the statement that "people are idiots" LOL.
The "average person" is an idiot.
I agree that elected representatives need to do what is best, not what the majority of the people who voted for you want you to do. For the very reason you mentioned.
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i love how ppl seem to think this deal was thrown together over lunch or something.
I don't think that, but considering the City and the Flames stated in media fairly recently that there were no new talks about an arena deal it seems like there hadn't been a lot of discussions going on until this recent announcement. Maybe my sense of time is a bit off though, but it really didn't seem like that long ago that they still seemed like neither side was in negotiations over this.
I don't think that, but considering the City and the Flames stated in media fairly recently that there were no new talks about an arena deal it seems like there hadn't been a lot of discussions going on until this recent announcement. Maybe my sense of time is a bit off though, but it really didn't seem like that long ago that they still seemed like neither side was in negotiations over this.
For the past 1.5 years the two sides have said negotiations have been going on behind the scenes. We didn't hear much because neither side wanted to negotiate through the media and make an ass of themselves like they did during the Calgary Next debacle.
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If a overrun is caused by one party's request, then that overrun is 100% on that party (e.g. if Flames want gold plated fixtures in the luxury boxes, the Flames will have to pay for them)
The 3000-5000 seat community rink will only be delivered if it can be fit within the $275 million contribution
CSEC's contribution to the Saddledome demolition is capped at $1.5 million regardless of what the final cost ends up being
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Would it be nice if city turns Saddledome into a multi-level indoor parkade with separate retail/communuty spaces at the current lower level/ticket office/Chrysler Club?
Keys: Demolish the interior, modify the exterior a la Key Arena and Oracle Arena + make sure city's skyline still looks fantastic and unique
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Would it be nice if city turns Saddledome into a multi-level indoor parkade with separate retail/communuty spaces at the current lower level/ticket office/Chrysler Club?
Keys: Demolish the interior, modify the exterior a la Key Arena and Oracle Arena + make sure city's skyline still looks fantastic and unique
While it might be nice to keep the skyline, the cost of such a project could probably go to something else the city needs like the fieldhouse.
If a private company wants to try and do that without any public money go ahead.
Plus I am not sure what the Stampede plans on doing with the Saddledome land but I think they want it for something more than another parkade.
Last edited by sureLoss; 07-26-2019 at 02:51 PM.
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If a overrun is caused by one party's request, then that overrun is 100% on that party (e.g. if Flames want gold plated fixtures in the luxury boxes, the Flames will have to pay for them)
The 3000-5000 seat community rink will only be delivered if it can be fit within the $275 million contribution
CSEC's contribution to the Saddledome demolition is capped at $1.5 million regardless of what the final cost ends up being
Just so we are all aware the 3000-5000 seat community arena is already cut or is an over run caused by the cities request. Also would be willing to wager that Saddledome Demo comes in at closer to the 25 million that was in the city’s rejection of the flames bid than the 12.5 in the make the bid look good package.
If a overrun is caused by one party's request, then that overrun is 100% on that party (e.g. if Flames want gold plated fixtures in the luxury boxes, the Flames will have to pay for them)
The 3000-5000 seat community rink will only be delivered if it can be fit within the $275 million contribution
CSEC's contribution to the Saddledome demolition is capped at $1.5 million regardless of what the final cost ends up being
Slim to none chance the secondary rink gets built if that's the case. Too bad for all parties involved. The Flames could use a practice rink, most teams have them. Would be great for the summer development camp as well.
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Would it be nice if city turns Saddledome into a multi-level indoor parkade with separate retail/communuty spaces at the current lower level/ticket office/Chrysler Club?
Keys: Demolish the interior, modify the exterior a la Key Arena and Oracle Arena + make sure city's skyline still looks fantastic and unique
The Key Arena redevelopment is currently anticipated to cost almost $1 billion. Maintaining the exterior of a building but modifying the interior is absurdly expensive. See: any historical building redevelopment project.
Personally, I don’t think there’s any benefit to the City other than the continued presence of the Flames in this arena. However, I do think there IS value in the presence of the Flames, not economically, but socially and culturally. That presence might be worth $275 million to enough Calgarians to make this a good deal for the city.
To me, any other arguments about value to Calgary in this project ring totally hollow. So debate the social and cultural value of the Flames (likely to be high on a forum dedicated to them), but leave any arguments about economic benefit at the door. There is more than enough evidence from around North America that sports arenas do not bring the benefits their boosters claim.
Ultimately, I hope this deal does go through and the arena is built - and is one of them cool “inverse bowl” stadiums (would it be the first?).
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I'm going to disagree with the statement that "people are idiots" LOL.
The "average person" is an idiot.
I agree that elected representatives need to do what is best, not what the majority of the people who voted for you want you to do. For the very reason you mentioned.
This theme reminds me of one of my favourite quotes:
“Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.”
― George Carlin
Yep.
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