Ongoing thread for Neal/Lucic discussion

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Bingo

He called him to tell him to waive his clause and come to Calgary which makes it pretty pertinent.

But sure if he called him to tell him Stranger Things 3 was good it wouldn't have the same impact. Luckily that wasn't the case.

I have to agree that you can't read too much into the phone calls from current players. As members of the organization, they were probably asked as favour by higher ups.

[dino7c]

Lucic is a better fit for the bottom six but I still can't get passed bailing out the Oilers. Trade is a PR nightmare...why make it now? Hold out for more from the Oilers...it's not like Lucic was going elsewhere

[Doctorfever]

Originally Posted by transplant99

And this is why these advanced stats mean so very little at times. People use them to justify players that simply are not good enough to be playing though. (And no Im not saying you are doing this, but it happens with great regularity)

Over the course of the last 2 years and amongst forwards who played as many or more games than him, he ranks 60th of 63 in offensive production. Against all players of any amount of games...220th overall.

I mean who cares if he "drives the play", if there is nothing to show for it?

Just based on his last year and a half, we can expect 19-31 goals if he plays every game in the next 4 seasons.

This is a horrendous player with a worse contract that is almost impossible to get out from under.

I get he brings the most serious snarl in the game as a part of his game, and I LOVE that part of things but here is the rub...he isnt good enough to play enough to use that snarl to any sort of advantage.

This was BT being so desperate to address the missing toughness on the team, he was willing to over look the much more important factors of the player he was bringing in. All in hopes of changing the teams fortunes in a playoff series that it may or may not be part of come next April.

I hope that some of the enthusiasm he reportedly has from this deal and a change of scenery suddenly sees him remember how to play the game again, but I'm sure as hell not holding my breath on it. Especially when it looks like he will be playing with Ryan and Bennett...two other guys that are lacking to varying degrees in production totals themselves.

The fact the he drives the play and has nothing to show for it is an indication on the level of talent that he was playing with.
If he has great line mates, maybe there is something to show for it.

He isn’t going to be Lucic from Boston days, but I think he can contribute in the bottom 6

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by woob

You forgot the "Full Stop."

There's one thing this thread shows pretty quick; it has been a QUIET off season. People losing their minds over this. Yegads! September 16th can't come soon enough.

Losing my mind?

No.

But i do view this as maybe the worst possible move the team could have made in regards to original massive blunder of a signing last year.

Doubling down on mistakes smacks of desperation to me, and desperation from the GM of the team I cheer for is not something I like seeing. Its been seen before in this city and results were not pretty.

I hope this is OK with you...that I have this opinion I mean. I was under the impression that this is what this board was for, but please correct me if I'm wrong and will I cease and desist...full stop.

[Leeman4Gilmour]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I have to agree that you can't read too much into the phone calls from current players. As members of the organization, they were probably asked as favour by higher ups.

I would not be surprised if Gaudreau is legitimately excited about having Lucic. Bad contract for bad contract, but Lucic brings an element we sorely lack. I am not concerned about his offensive production. We don’t need it. We desperately need his 3+ hits a game though.

[Nelson]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Yeah I was surprised when I put that up yesterday. But no it doesn't have anything to do with Edmonton depth. There isn't 5 good possession players on every team, so a team that sucks has a guy that has good numbers but really isn't that good.

Actually the opposite. He was a play driver by any measure playing with hot garbage. That is stunning to me.

One of the best ways to build a hockey team is to find undervalued players and trade overvalued players for them. Lucic’s rep is so bad it’s hard to believe Treliving accomplished this in this trade, and we’ll have to wait and see, but the numbers suggest this is exactly what Treliving did.

[Bonded]

I don't think there is much upside with Lucic and Neal will probably get 20-30 goals on the Oilers. Seems like Tre did the Oilers a favour

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

The fact the he drives the play and has nothing to show for it is an indication on the level of talent that he was playing with.
If he has great line mates, maybe there is something to show for it.

He isn’t going to be Lucic from Boston days, but I think he can contribute in the bottom 6

Yeah, let's say he plays with Ryan. Ryan ended the season on a real roll, 7 goals, 14 points in the fourth quarter. He is easily better than any Brodziak. Let's say he plays with Mangiapane. His trajectory is similar and you get the sense he's on the edge of really producing. Or Bennett, or Jankowski, or Fube, all similar.

[soulchoice]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

This could be another side benefit of this deal, if UFA’s do not want to sign with the Flames it will be a longterm win. UFA’s seem to have about a 70 percent fail rate in the League, overpaid with too much term is usually the story on most UFA’s.

Not only that but the fact is Calgary is at the bottom of the list for the high profile UFA’s anyways. It’s not like the Flames are a destination when players have a choice. It’s rare for any top player to choose the Flames unless they overpay and give more term(just as they did with Neal). Hence, the Flames don’t have to worry about the UFA image as they are not an option for the elite or high end free agents.

The low to mid tier UFAs will always be the ones who the Flames have some semblance of hope with. Those can’t be choosers for the most part. As they don’t have as many options.

As well, from my understanding and sources, the only two teams willing to give Neal some term as a UFA with the 5 million plus yearly average was the Knights and Flames.

Flames only able to acquire/sign Neal as they were forced to give an extra year.

[Sylvanfan]

Originally Posted by taxbuster

The biggest winners in this trade are the Flames owners. They saved $7 Million in cold, hard, cash. (Plus a small amount of cap relief.)

This is not a "fan" or a "hockey" trade...it's a "money" trade. Pure and simple. The hope (on both teams) is that the savings for the Flames comes with some bonus toughness, and for the Greasers that they get some scoring for what they paid.

One way or another the Flames come out ahead.

Whether we, as fans, will be better off we will need to wait to see.

Is it 7 that the Flames save or is it more?
Flames pay 87.5% of these amounts.
19-20 3 million as 3 million bonus already paid
20-21 4 million (3 signing bonus plus 1 million base)
21-22 5 million (2.5 signing plus 2.5 base)
22-23 4 million (3 signing plus 1 base)

So 16 million left and Flames pay 14. Neal has 4 years at 5.75 a year left all in base salary and no signing bonuses. So thats 23 million.

So of this is correct, its 9 million in cash. That covers Troy Brouwer and Mason Raymond buyout.

[Nelson]

This trade embodies the moneyball approach.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by transplant99

I hope this is OK with you...that I have this opinion I mean. I was under the impression that this is what this board was for, but please correct me if I'm wrong and will I cease and desist...full stop.

Based on the amount you play the victim every time someone disagrees with you I’m surprised your location isn’t listed as “the morgue.”

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Based on the amount you play the victim every time someone disagrees with you I’m surprised your location isn’t listed as “the morgue.”

Quite the drive by....well done.

Doesnt address the issue at hand, personal attack.

Yup, good stuff.

[Ped]

I don't really get why it's difficult to Understand that people are allowed to not like a move and have valid reasons for it.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

Is it 7 that the Flames save or is it more?
Flames pay 87.5% of these amounts.
19-20 3 million as 3 million bonus already paid
20-21 4 million (3 signing bonus plus 1 million base)
21-22 5 million (2.5 signing plus 2.5 base)
22-23 4 million (3 signing plus 1 base)

So 16 million left and Flames pay 14. Neal has 4 years at 5.75 a year left all in base salary and no signing bonuses. So thats 23 million.

So of this is correct, its 9 million in cash. That covers Troy Brouwer and Mason Raymond buyout.

Buyouts don’t actually cost the owners more money if you are a cap team. If you bought out Neal you can only spend 3.5 million on the replacement because you get cap limited.

So there isn’t really a thing to “cover” the old buyouts. This is just them being cheap and perhaps a psychological objection to paying a player to do nothing.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by woob

You forgot the "Full Stop."

There's one thing this thread shows pretty quick; it has been a QUIET off season. People losing their minds over this. Yegads! September 16th can't come soon enough.

The Flames could have landed Sidney Crosby for Sam Bennett at the draft and I would still be losing my mind over this trade. This is just a situation the GM should have never put himself in where he helps out their biggest rival to rid himself of his mistake. The optics are bad, the trade return was bad, and as much as people want to put a positive spin on this whole James Neal signing and trade is simply one of the biggest organizational blunders since the ROR offer sheet or Phaneuf/Jokinen trades by Sutter in 2010. There's no other way to sugarcoat this other than it's an embarrassment. Maybe Lucic can add some grit and even score 10+ goals for a season or two but the Flames should never have put themselves in a position where accepting this contract is a solution for anything!

At the end of the day it's just another reminder of why this organization has been constantly amongst the worst in the NHL over the last 30 years when it comes to playoffs or any sort of success in general. The only thing a Flames fan can hang their hat on over the decades is being better than the Oilers and that's an incredibly low bar. Moves like this pull Flames fans heads out of the clouds after finishing 2nd overall last season to remind them that mediocrity is patiently waiting around the corner for this team to fall back into.

[DeluxeMoustache]

transplant -

Again, Lucic played last year with his primary line mates being Kassian and Brodziak.

Brodziak put up all of nine (9) points all year. That’s not so good. Certainly not comparable to Ryan and Bennett
Kassian put up 5 of his 26 points in the first half, then 21 in the second half when his primary line mates were the duo of McJesus and Draisaitl

Yeah, Lucic’s results were horrendous. But he played on a really bad team where the offense runs through one guy. And he wasn’t playing with that guy. And he definitely didn’t have D the caliber of the Flames D helping to move the puck up ice.

Lucic’s results actually became horrendous consistent with deployment. He was a 50 point guy his first year. He had 27 points the first half of 17-18 playing with the Nuge, then he dropped. Looked like the blender was out as he started playing sometimes with Cammalleri on his last legs, Khaira, etc.

You say Ryan and Bennett had issues. After a slow start, Ryan ended up having 38 points, as a bottom 6 Center. I have news for you - that’s not lacking in production.

I mean, the pretty much one dimensional player Neal the Flames thought they were getting had 41 and 44 points his 2 seasons prior to joining the Flames (playing with Perron and Haula).

Lucic is coming in to quite a favourable situation. Even if he isn’t on the top line (which nobody necessarily expects right now), he will have comparably decent linemates and quality D.

The real loser in this deal is probably Kassian. Because people were projecting the Oil using him on the top line. They will probably gift his spot to Neal.

[Sylvanfan]

Originally Posted by GGG

So there isn’t really a thing to “cover” the old buyouts. This is just them being cheap and perhaps a psychological objection to paying a player to do nothing.

The angle I am going with is that Edwards cares little about the cap and more about what he spends. He hates paying 8 million for Brouwer and Raymond not playing for him. Treliving had 23 million in future committments to a contract that looked destined to be bought out. Now its 14 and thats a number the owner likes better.

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by Ped

I don't really get why it's difficult to Understand that people are allowed to not like a move and have valid reasons for it.

Where has it been disallowed?

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Losing my mind?

No.

I hope this is OK with you...that I have this opinion I mean. I was under the impression that this is what this board was for, but please correct me if I'm wrong and will I cease and desist...full stop.

Your reaction was more than a little over the top. Losing your mind over it would be a fairly apt description of your first reaction.

Opinions are great. It’s the being unnecessarily over dramatic that people would have an issue with. “Darkest day of the franchise”. Hyperbole to the extreme. It was a bad contract for bad contract. We traded one of the worst forwards the flames have iced in the past 5 years. Your reaction was ridiculous and we’re calling a spade a spade. If you can’t handle people’s reactions to your overreactions then I’m not sure what to suggest for ya.