Ongoing thread for Neal/Lucic discussion

[CanadaMatt]

Originally Posted by MissTeeks

Well, I'm glad you get to tell us how right you were for the rest of the summer.

It’s not about being right or wrong, opinions are always going to be subject to assumptions which may not play out.

It’s about holding people accountable for sprouting rubbish all season. The frustrating thing those of us who believed this was a bad signing from the start, was the countless BS arguments used to justify the signing. Now those BS arguments are exposed and the chickens have come home to roost.

I could post all the quotes stating (for a fact) that Neal was a great dressing room guy...but I’ll hold off (for now)

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Shazam

Lucic will not get 15 goals. He will not get 15 assists. He didn’t get that on second line minutes. What makes you think he will with third line minutes?

He just got 14 assists with third line (at best) minutes.

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

He will be consistentlg playing with better forwards, on lines that are made for the modern NHL, with better defensemen, with softer deployment.

He had six goals last year.

Six.

You're expecting him to more than double his production.

With Sam Bennett. A player that got 14 assists last year.

And with Derek Ryan, I guess? soyouresayingtheresachance.jpg

I'm not so sure about the softer deployment. There is no line management necessary playing against the Oilers. Because they are all awful save for three players. And two of them play together even though they shouldn't because they literally have no else to play with. Their goalies spot a couple and then you might as well roll all four lines.

Remember, he got third line minutes last year. Are you saying that other teams sent their first and second lines against that line?

[Redrum]

Originally Posted by monkeyman

Does anyone have the dancing Rico Fata Spiderman gif?

Haha, I was thinking of that while typing. Rico Fata was the best Flame of all time by that logic.

[bax]

You know what would be awesome?

Let’s rally around Lucic. Let’s show the hockey world that we respect a player that wants to be here and comes in to work hard, do his job, and protect his teammates.

Let’s get a Lucic chant going first game of the season and embrace him and his role on the team. Yes, the contract sucks but forget about that and take him for what he is at face value. He will fit in well on the 4th line and provide more than Neal was ever going to despite what he does in Edmonton.

We rescued him from Edmonton so let’s let him return the favor by hitting, fighting, and chipping in the odd goal. Yes, he’s a mean goon, but let’s embrace him as our mean goon.


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[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by mrdonkey

After sleeping on it, I still hate this. Looking at the composition of this team on Capfriendly, it’s just... weird. There’s like a million LWs and basically no one on RW after Lindholm. I have no idea what Treliving is doing, and after Kadri fell through I’m not convinced he does either. It all reeks of desperation in much the same way as those directionless Sutter teams.

Here's how I see this team makeup, assume Frolik is on the out for cap space:

LWs
Gaudreau
Tkachuk
Mangiapane
Lucic

RWs
Lindholm
Czarnik

LHS Cs
Monahan
Backlund
Bennett
Dube
Jankowski

RHS Cs
Ryan

It's not ideal, but

1) Between Ryan, Lindholm, Andersson, and Czarnik, there are still four RHS players who can contribute on the powerplay as forwards (Andersson played this role in the playoffs nicely)

2) Mangiapane, Jankowski, Dube and Bennett all have the versatility to play their offwing. Forwards play their offwing all the time.

3) Czarnik IMO has more to show. He never found a fit on the Ryan line because the line was undersized, and the Bennett-Jankowski-Czarnik line went cold after a hot start which IMO is tied to Jankowski's struggles at center. A better center (Monahan or Bennett) could really be the right fit for taking advantage of Czarnik's offensive skill.

4) Phillips and Zavgorodniy are close. Real close in my opinion. I wouldn't be surprised at all if one of these two makes the team out of training camp, though Zavgorodniy would get sent down after nine games.

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

He just got 14 assists with third line (at best) minutes.

Yeah hey you're not going to convince me that he his based on last year's stats.

[bax]

Originally Posted by Saqe

Don't know about desperation but Lucic has looked done for a while now and probably had the worst contract in the league. To move Neal for him after giving him just one year in the organization seems like a panic move. Not to mention it's not really a ringing endorsement for future ufas.

I actually think it is an endorsement for future UFA’s. For whatever reason it was clearly a bad fit for Neal on the Flames and Tre accommodated giving him a fresh start for a bad deal (on paper)


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[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Shazam

Yeah hey you're not going to convince me that he his based on last year's stats.

So 14 assists with terrible players means 15 with better ones is impossible? OK, guess.

[AC]

Originally Posted by zamler

Thinking back to Calgary vs Colorado I don't see how a guy like Lucic would have made the slightest difference, do you?

Zadorov made a huge difference in the series IMO.

Especially considering he was pretty inconsequential during the regular season.

[midniteowl]

Originally Posted by troutman

Why does Lucic have "less chance of bouncing back" than Neal? He is younger than Neal and going to a better team.

This exactly it! Neal has to score 20+ goals for this trade to be successful for them, all Lucic needs to do is score a few and punch a bunch of Oilers faces. As per the NMC and expansion draft, why sweat something might or might not happens 2 years from now. At least I won't, I might be dead by then.

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by bax

You know what would be awesome?

Let’s rally around Lucic. Let’s show the hockey world that we respect a player that wants to be here and comes in to work hard, do his job, and protect his teammates.

Let’s get a Lucic chant going first game of the season and embrace him and his role on the team. Yes, the contract sucks but forget about that and take him for what he is at face value. He will fit in well on the 4th line and provide more than Neal was ever going to despite what he does in Edmonton.

We rescued him from Edmonton so let’s let him return the favor by hitting, fighting, and chipping in the odd goal. Yes, he’s a mean goon, but let’s embrace him as our mean goon.


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If he goes out and hits people without getting penalized, and can do that on a consistent basis, he will have met my expectations.

I expect him to get under 20 points. He will have fourth line minutes by November. Someone from training camp or another trade will take his third line spot.

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

So 14 assists with terrible players means 15 with better ones is impossible? OK, guess.

Like I said, he's not going to remain on the third line.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Redrum

I didn't realize if you can skate fast you are guaranteed an NHL spot. I thought their situation was due to not being very good players overall.

What, you've forgotten 3x Hart Trophy winner Matthew Lombardi already?

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Shazam

Like I said, he's not going to remain on the third line.

OK, fourth line then. Any bottom six combo you can name is better than the players he spent the majority of last year with. Jankowski, Ryan, Mangiapane, Dube, Bennett or Czarnik - they are all better linemates.

Or are you saying he will be on the second line? Based on his line production, if he'd been with RNH more he'd have easily scored more points. I would expect the same with Backlund.

[AC]

Speaking of Zadorov vs the Flames in round 1, Gord Miller called the series for NBC and thought the same thing:
https://youtu.be/Jh_6UZA9Za8?t=417

Miller: "Calgary got run out of the building by Colorado in the first round."
Simmons: "But how much of that was run out of the building, and how much was speed?"
Miller: "I think Colorado's size --I called that series-- and Colorado's size was a big difference. Nikita Zadorov is no one's idea of an offensive defenceman, but man he pounded the Flames. He leaned on Gaudreau, he leaned on Monahan. It was big body hockey. (...) And Calgary just couldn't seem to fight through."

Lucic himself brought up a good point: STL and WSH both won the Cup with some big guys playing big games. It's not a case of one or the other to me. Bringing in Lucic adds an element we didn't have and can actually use. Plus he fits better on the 3rd line than Neal did, and Neal did not show he had what it took to play on our top 2 lines either.

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

OK, fourth line then. Any bottom six combo you can name is better than the players he spent the majority of last year with. Jankowski, Ryan, Mangiapane, Dube, Bennett or Czarnik - they are all better linemates.

Or are you saying he will be on the second line? Based on his line production, if he'd been with RNH more he'd have easily scored more points. I would expect the same with Backlund.

Well you can read what I wrote or you can be wrong. You chose the second.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Shazam

Lucic will not get 15 goals. He will not get 15 assists. He didn’t get that on second line minutes. What makes you think he will with third line minutes?

Originally Posted by Shazam

Well you can read what I wrote or you can be wrong. You chose the second.

Your problem, then, is your false premise. Lucic didn't get second line minutes. At least not more than maybe 15% of the time (in which he scored at a way better rate BTW).

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by CanadaMatt

Bizarre.

How can this be when his Leadership was touted by those ‘in the know’ on this forum as a reason he was valuable to the team. Some went so far as to suggest his mere presence in the bench was a differentiator and made the team play better.

If I didn’t know better, I’d swear folks made up their own ‘facts’ to back up the conclusion they wanted to arrive at.

You were right man, we get it.

You going to be all, “I told you so!” Until the end of time? Your schtick is irritating

[Saqe]

Originally Posted by bax

I actually think it is an endorsement for future UFA’s. For whatever reason it was clearly a bad fit for Neal on the Flames and Tre accommodated giving him a fresh start for a bad deal (on paper)


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Accomodated him into Edmonton