Ongoing thread for Neal/Lucic discussion

[Igottago]

Two days ago this things would have looked very different in this forum when it comes to the analysis of Lucic. Let's not pretend we aren't desperately looking for positives now that he's a Flame.

Anyways, it's a tough call on the trade, because Neal was clearly not working. I do like that Lucic brings some much needed toughness...I just don't think he has any effective game left in him. I worry he'll become an anchor on the third line regardless. Our bottom six was really effective last season, and I don't actually see Lucic as an improvement there other that size and the ability to fight. It's kind of like just getting a classic goon, who makes way too much money and has too much contract security.

Would love to be proven wrong and Lucic somehow finds another dimension to his game again. Hoping for the best.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Bingo

That's pretty much me.

So having let this digest for 20 hours I'm at this point.

1. I never wanted Lucic on the Flames, yuck
2. I have to keep reminding myself that Neal has left as well, which removes some of the yuck
3. Lucic has the worse contract so you knew Edmonton had to kick something in
4. What Edmonton kicked in doesn't balance this for me so I don't get it
5. I wonder still if the Flames insisted Lucic waive his NMC, but havne't heard so and I'm nervous
6. They do have time to sort that out though including a buy out in two years
7. Lucic is a better fit of two players that don't fit because of physical play and not needing to play top six minutes to contribute
8. Guys like Gaudreau calling Lucic tells me the Flames top to bottom really wanted Neal gone
9. Which certainly pushes me to think it's more than the coach that had a problem with the guy

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Pretty much exactly where I am.

On the last point, my second hand alumni connection has said things that suggest that's correct.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Igottago

Two days ago this things would have looked very different in this forum when it comes to the analysis of Lucic. Let's not pretend we aren't desperately looking for positives now that he's a Flame.

Anyways, it's a tough call on the trade, because Neal was clearly not working. I do like that Lucic brings some much needed toughness...I just don't think he has any effective game left in him. I worry he'll become an anchor on the third line regardless. Our bottom six was really effective last season, and I don't actually see Lucic as an improvement there other that size and the ability to fight. It's kind of like just getting a classic goon, who makes way too much money and has too much contract security.

Would love to be proven wrong and Lucic somehow finds another dimension to his game again. Hoping for the best.

Was Neal not a similar anchor on the third line? I don't see how that position can get any worse production.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

You do realize Lucic waiver his NMC to get traded here. Why wouldn’t he waive it to potentially go to Seattle?

If you want to run around in a manic hysteria for something two years away that will undoubtedly be a non-factor...have at it.

It's not about Lucic actually going to Seattle. Seattle isn't taking Lucic. The Flames will have to expose a someone better than him regardless.

As long as Looch does us a solid and doesn't make is protect him in a draft he knows he won't be selected in, he's cool.

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Was Neal not a similar anchor on the third line? I don't see how that position can get any worse production.

I think Neal would have had a better chance to bounce back and at least provide some more goals. But no way to prove that until we see the hockey next season.

[bigrangy]

Originally Posted by Bingo

That's pretty much me.

So having let this digest for 20 hours I'm at this point.

1. I never wanted Lucic on the Flames, yuck
2. I have to keep reminding myself that Neal has left as well, which removes some of the yuck
3. Lucic has the worse contract so you knew Edmonton had to kick something in
4. What Edmonton kicked in doesn't balance this for me so I don't get it
5. I wonder still if the Flames insisted Lucic waive his NMC, but havne't heard so and I'm nervous
6. They do have time to sort that out though including a buy out in two years
7. Lucic is a better fit of two players that don't fit because of physical play and not needing to play top six minutes to contribute
8. Guys like Gaudreau calling Lucic tells me the Flames top to bottom really wanted Neal gone
9. Which certainly pushes me to think it's more than the coach that had a problem with the guy

Number 4 for me is the key point of why I don’t like this trade very much.

A conditional third with stupid conditions (if Neal outscores Lucic by ten their difference in value is a whole hell of a lot more than a third), and a measly 500k in cap savings is virtually no compensation for taking such a big risk.

I am very surprised that BT did not insist on including Puljujarvi, then at least there would be a possibility for the compensation to turn out to be something.

It now just looks like a straight cash saving move for the owners, which is not what you want to see when the team had it’s best season in 30 years.

[Teroy]

Never liked Lucic. He's one of the dirtiest players in the league. He's exactly what he Flames need. Last year, other than Tkachuk, the Flames were a bunch of pussies. I'll take his few points and 250+ hits any day over Neal. The opposition better keep their heads up. Welcome Looch.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by bigrangy

Number 4 for me is the key point of why I don’t like this trade very much.

A conditional third with stupid conditions (if Neal outscores Lucic by ten their difference in value is a whole hell of a lot more than a third), and a measly 500k in cap savings is virtually no compensation for taking such a big risk.

I am very surprised that BT did not insist on including Puljujarvi, then at least there would be a possibility for the compensation to turn out to be something.

It now just looks like a straight cash saving move for the owners, which is not what you want to see when the team had it’s best season in 30 years.

If Neal outscores Lucic by 10 it just means they went and put him on McDavid's wing instead of Chiasson. It makes little difference to team success. In fact, it's a disincentive for Edmonton to play Neal with either RNH or McDavid.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by marsplasticeraser

Flames lost biggest hitter in Hathaway (200 hits last year) and we’re already soft.

Lucic had 275 hits last year. He may also be useful in playoffs where speed becomes less important.

Neal was useless and seemed ok that he was useless.

Look at it if we had traded James Neal for Ryan reeves and retained $2.5mm of NealI think we’d all be happy at getting out from under Neal’s anchor contract. That’s kind of what we did. Lucic has similar offence and physicality.

Neal may work out in Edmonton, but I don’t think we had a need for a slow, non-physical, perimeter winger.

Flames may be only team where lucic can be an improvement.

Lucic's physical play is on a whole other level compared to Hathaway. Even on the Oilers Lucic was still throwing game changing hits. Lucic also wins fights. Lucic is still the kind of player who shakes the boards when he hits someone. That really is something the team was missing.

Worst case scenario is that we've ended up with a goon. You're correct we already had the cap hit by signing Neal.

My worry is that the Lucic contract seems harder to buyout than the Neal one. Typically when players like Neal are moved out teams look to find easier says to get out of cap hits.

Hopefully I'm wrong, and we get a 40 point winger with big physical game.

.... If only we'd acquired Kadri. A line if Lucic, Kadri, and Tkachuk would have been the best pest line in history.

[btimbit]

The pick is pretty much irrelevant to me anyway, does anyone here actually see Neal getting 21 goals? He couldn't even keep up with Tkachuk and Backlund yet he's somehow going to keep up with Draisatl and McDavid?

Too bad it doesn't become a fourth or something if the conditions aren't met.

[GreenLantern2814]

Fwiw, Lucic has 200+ hits in six straight seasons. He's never had a season with fewer than 139. Ferland last had 200 hits in 2015-16.

This dude hits. He might not do anything else, but he hits and he's 230 lbs.

[ComixZone]

In the end, we dumped a player that did not fit and brought in a player that fit a need. We save $500K per year while adding no term. “Well, it’s buyout proof” - well maybe we weren’t going to buyout Neal, ever. If a buyout wasn’t in the plan, then it’s a moo point.

I’ll always cheer for the team. I cheered on Neal and wanted him to hit his stride here, but ultimately that guy was an absolute waste of ice on the Flames. He contributed nothing, he sunk his linemates, and the only chance of him bouncing back was if he were to be gifted unearned minutes with our top players. Mangiapane, Bennett, Jankowski, and Ryan all deserve a bump up the lineup well before Neal did - so I’m happy to see him gone. Useless player on the 3rd line.

Reflecting on Neal, he’s always been an Oiler. Can’t win the big game, chokes under pressure, pouts after being pushed down the lineup. He is where he belongs, and that’s right alongside other Flames castaways in Edmonton, where he may score more goals, but he’s not going to improve his line mates.

Advanced stats also generally seem weighted in Lucic’s favour, and that’s no small thing - especially when we’re talking about a depth player who needs to help push the play North, not float around the ice trying to cherry pick opportunities while ultimately hurting his line mates.

[Yoho]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1152322300517199872

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Yeah it’s a lot of cap space.

Not enough to sign star players like 19-point 5.75M James Neal, but we’ll have to manage.

The “reality” is only a reality in your head, which seems like it’s full of that aforementioned fuzziness. Even if everything goes south (and hell, it might) it’s pretty hard to believe this is any way monumental or franchise crippling. Unless you believe Neal was suddenly going to rebound playing on Calgary’s third line again, where he was oh so happy and full of effort all season. And if you believe that, more power to you, but the “reality” is, that it was a long shot.

The only mistake made was signing Neal in the first place, and that’s on Neal. If you can’t come to the rink prepared and can’t bother to show up for your team and put effort in, that’s on you. I’d rather have an overpaid player who cares while putting up 20 than one who doesn’t while putting up 20.

Neal wanted out. Peters didn’t trust Neal. He wasn’t turning back into the “real deal” any time soon.

As far as me being “condescending” or “screaming at others” relax man. You made a silly mistake and I told you to use your brain. It’s Saturday morning and the rain has stopped. Hockey forums ain’t serious business

You’re running around calling everything “spin” and saying nobody should think this is anything less than horrible. Time to breathe..

I really wish you would quit telling others how to react and what to think and how they feel...who the hell are you?

I disagree with everything you posted. That OK with you? Actually it doesn't matter cause Im not changing my mind on this without seeing something different than what I fully expect too see and how it plays out long term.

To my eyes..Milan Lucic has been one of the absolute worst players in the game for 2 years now. Full stop. Thats why I hate this deal so much...and the ability to get out from under it, really does not exist in any tangible form at this point.

Do I hope it doesn't play out that way? Of course I do. Does it seem likely or even possible...no not really.

He brings two things and two things only... "hits" ( which he can be very good at although a very very subjective stat that the NHL has never addressed properly) and a pretty much buyout proof contract that he hasnt lived up to for 2 and a half seasons of NHL hockey now. 7 goals in his last 122 hockey games. Those are both a big sample size.

Since Jan. 1 of 2017 he has been a 30 point pace guy and the single worst +/- on a team that was horrendous in that department all while logging the 4th most minutes among forwards all for the bargain price of 6 million dollars a season.

There was not a worse player they could acquire in my mind...period.

[Knut]

Think this thread hits 10,000 Posts ? It's a long off-season still.

[CanadaMatt]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

In fact, it's a disincentive for Edmonton to play Neal with either RNH or McDavid.

The coach is in charge of the line up and I doubt he gives two sh#ts about pick 70 in next years draft.

Unless it’s the very last couple of games of the season AND Edmonton no chance of making playoffs AND the conditions are ‘close’, the coach will put Neal where he thinks it’s best for team success, and give absolutely no thought as to the conditional draft pick.

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by Hes

Think this thread hits 10,000 Posts ? It's a long off-season still.

Oh yeah. Lots of whining left to do!

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by CanadaMatt

The coach is in charge of the line up and I doubt he gives two sh#ts about pick 70 in next years draft.

Unless it’s the very last couple of games of the season AND Edmonton no chance of making playoffs AND the conditions are ‘close’, the coach will put Neal where he thinks it’s best for team success, and give absolutely no thought as to the conditional draft pick.

I suppose. But do I care if Neal plays on McDavid's wing over Chiasson? Nope. They played Lucic with Brodziak, when he played better with RNH. Who knows why.

[Roof-Daddy]

I agree that if the expansion draft arrives and the Flames have to use a protection slot on Lucic it will be a huge blunder.

That's a long ways off though and there is no point in being angry about it now. Two years from now this team could be two time defending Cup champs, completely and utterly blown up and retooled/rebuilt or anything in between.

My main concern right now is how the Flames do in the upcoming season and agree with me or not I'd rather have Lucic at $5.25 million crushing people and face punching in a bottom six role than Neal at $5.75 million doing none of that and also not contributing as a top 6 winger all while apparently being a malcontent in the dressing room and not getting along with the coach.

Good riddance to Neal and hopefully Lucic provides something the Flames sorely neede while they finish miles ahead of the oilers in the standings once again.

[MissTeeks]

Here’s Haynes’ article on the trade for The Athletic, with more stuff from Treliving and Lucic, in case you wanted something else to read than everyone snarking at each other:

https://twitter.com/user/status/1152599843757445122

https://theathletic.com/1086246/2019...an-james-neal/