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Old 06-15-2019, 12:46 AM   #81
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That's way over the top and you know it.

I am of course open to a reasoned dialogue.

And I am not religious, believe in a two-state solution with free trade, think that many of the problems with the claim to a "greater Israel" stem not from local Israelis (who want peace and security) but from transplanted Brooklyn zealots.

I honestly believe the region would look so much different today had Yitzhak Rabin not been assassinated.
This.

A thousand times this.
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Old 06-15-2019, 12:46 AM   #82
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Nm

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Old 06-15-2019, 09:36 AM   #83
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We've had this slapfight before, so I'm not going to re-iterate my effortposts about Divine Right bull####, Jewish diaspora and Herzl Zionism, but I would like to remind you that you aren't the only Jewish poster on this forum, even though you'll take every chance given to martyr yourself for it.
You have repeatedly used a term incorrectly in a way that is most vile and only meant as a racist insult. And each time, run away from discussing it and pretend that you have discussed it already.

There is no divine right in the conversation at all, and you know it.

We can all care less about what religion you are. It doesn't give you moral authority to spew this garbage.
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Old 06-15-2019, 09:54 AM   #84
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Remember no hitting in the face.
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Old 06-15-2019, 09:55 AM   #85
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This.

A thousand times this.
I honestly don't know about that. Gaza is a good example of land for peace not working. There are too many neighbour nations openly hostile with their own citizens for them to suddenly want peaceful relations with Israel. As long as Iran and others are funding terror groups, I can't see Israel lowering their guard.

Despite the moral outrage about Israel and vile accusations, Israeli's simply want security. Two state is the way to go, as long as that state bordering Israel isn't another Gaza.

How do we stop that?
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Old 06-15-2019, 10:04 AM   #86
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I honestly don't know about that. Gaza is a good example of land for peace not working. There are too many neighbour nations openly hostile with their own citizens for them to suddenly want peaceful relations with Israel. As long as Iran and others are funding terror groups, I can't see Israel lowering their guard.

Despite the moral outrage about Israel and vile accusations, Israeli's simply want security. Two state is the way to go, as long as that state bordering Israel isn't another Gaza.

How do we stop that?
As I have gotten older, I've turned less apatheist and more anti-religion.
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Old 06-15-2019, 10:34 AM   #87
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I was just in Israel last fall and we toured the area not far from Gaza with some IDF soldiers.

There is no doubt that Gaza first has been a terrible failure and there is so much blame to go round.

One of the ideas Rabin and Peres had at the time was an elevated highway across the Negev Desert that would allow for the free movement of the citizens of Gaza and the West Bank including via high speed rail. The link would also include water and energy.

Their vision also included a free trade zone among Israel, the new State of Palestine and Jordan.

If this bold vision had become reality I think you would have seen two peoples today sharing everyday life with much more in common between themselves than with others in the region.
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Old 06-15-2019, 10:38 AM   #88
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I honestly don't know about that. Gaza is a good example of land for peace not working. There are too many neighbour nations openly hostile with their own citizens for them to suddenly want peaceful relations with Israel. As long as Iran and others are funding terror groups, I can't see Israel lowering their guard.

Despite the moral outrage about Israel and vile accusations, Israeli's simply want security. Two state is the way to go, as long as that state bordering Israel isn't another Gaza.

How do we stop that?
Hahah, since Oslo, Israel has taken more land, for development & “outposts” that was identified as Palestinian. Yet since Rabin it’s been worse for Israel. Right.

Lol.

And Saudi Arabia is the enemy here, not Iran.
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Old 06-15-2019, 12:06 PM   #89
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I was just in Israel last fall and we toured the area not far from Gaza with some IDF soldiers.

There is no doubt that Gaza first has been a terrible failure and there is so much blame to go round.

One of the ideas Rabin and Peres had at the time was an elevated highway across the Negev Desert that would allow for the free movement of the citizens of Gaza and the West Bank including via high speed rail. The link would also include water and energy.

Their vision also included a free trade zone among Israel, the new State of Palestine and Jordan.

If this bold vision had become reality I think you would have seen two peoples today sharing everyday life with much more in common between themselves than with others in the region.
Anything successful I think would bring in more effort from Iran/Saudi to destabilize again. The regimes cannot afford Israel being successful.
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Old 06-15-2019, 12:10 PM   #90
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Hahah, since Oslo, Israel has taken more land, for development & “outposts” that was identified as Palestinian. Yet since Rabin it’s been worse for Israel. Right.

Lol.

And Saudi Arabia is the enemy here, not Iran.
Israel absolutely has taken more land, and they will continue taking land. They currently have no negotiating partner and are creating a country with the borders they want. Land for peace will be the solution. If the Palestinians want peace, and can guarantee safety for Israelis, there will be an exchange.

Oh yah, Iran paying for Hezbollah and Hamas to kill Israelis and Muslims are certainly horrid, but let's ignore that ok?

These debates are often filled with drive by posts (such as yours), filled with sweeping nonsensical arguments. If you truly felt Iran wasn't the enemy, then please explain.
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Old 06-15-2019, 01:19 PM   #91
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AMY GOODMAN: Today, a special with Henry Siegman, the former executive director of the American Jewish Congress, long described as one of the nation’s “big three” Jewish organizations along with the American Jewish Committee and the Anti-Defamation League. Henry Siegman was born in 1930 in Frankfurt, Germany. Three years later, the Nazis came to power. After fleeing Nazi troops in Belgium, his family eventually moved to the United States. His father was a leader of the European Zionist movement, pushing for the creation of a Jewish state. In New York, Henry Siegman studied and was ordained as an Orthodox rabbi by Yeshiva Torah Vodaas. He later became head of the Synagogue Council of America. After his time at the American Jewish Congress, Siegman became a senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations. He now serves as president of the U.S./Middle East Project.
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HENRY SIEGMAN: Yes, it’s disastrous. It’s disastrous, both in political terms, which is to say the situation cannot conceivably, certainly in the short run, lead to any positive results, to an improvement in the lives of either Israelis or Palestinians, and of course it’s disastrous in humanitarian terms, the kind of slaughter that’s taking place there. When one thinks that this is what is necessary for Israel to survive, that the Zionist dream is based on the slaughter of—repeated slaughter of innocents on a scale that we’re watching these days on television, that is really a profound, profound crisis—and should be a profound crisis—in the thinking of all of us who were committed to the establishment of the state and to its success. It leads one virtually to a whole rethinking of this historical phenomenon.
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MARK REGEV: Listen, if you’ll allow me to, I want to take issue with one important word you said. You said Israel is the occupying authority. You’re forgetting Israel pulled out of the Gaza Strip. We took down all the settlements, and the settlers who didn’t want to leave, we forced them to leave. We pulled back to the 1967 international frontier. There is no Israeli occupation of the Gaza Strip. We haven’t been there for some eight years.

HENRY SIEGMAN: OK, yeah. That is of course utter nonsense, and for several reasons. First of all, Gaza is controlled completely, like the West Bank, because it is totally surrounded by Israel. Israel could not be imposing the kind of chokehold it has on Gaza if it were not surrounding, if its military were not surrounding Gaza, and not just on the territory, but also on the air, on the sea. No one there can make a move without coming into contact with the Israeli IDF, you know, outside this imprisoned area where Gazans live. So, there’s no one I have encountered, who is involved with international law, who’s ever suggested to me that in international law Gaza is not considered occupied. So that’s sheer nonsense.
But there’s another point triggered by your question to me, and this is the propaganda machine, and these official spokespeople will always tell you, “Take a look at what kind of people these are. Here we turned over Gaza to them. And you’d think they would invest their energies in building up the area, making it a model government and model economy. Instead, they’re working on rockets.” The implication here is that they, in effect, offered Palestinians a mini state, and they didn’t take advantage of it, so the issue isn’t really Palestinian statehood. That is the purpose of this kind of critique.
And I have always asked myself, and this has a great deal to do with my own changing views about the policies of governments, not about the Jewish state qua Jewish state, but of the policies pursued by Israeli governments and supported—you know, they say Israel is a model democracy in the Middle East, so you must assume—the public has to assume some responsibility for what the government does, because they put governments in place. So, the question I ask myself: What if the situation were reversed? You know, there is a Talmudic saying in Pirkei Avot, The Ethics of the Fathers: ”Al tadin et chavercha ad shetagiah lemekomo,” “Don’t judge your neighbor until you can imagine yourself in his place.” So, my first question when I deal with any issue related to the Israeli-Palestinian issue: What if we were in their place?



What if the situation were reversed, and the Jewish population were locked into, were told, “Here, you have less than 2 percent of Palestine, so now behave. No more resistance. And let us deal with the rest”? Is there any Jew who would have said this is a reasonable proposition, that we cease our resistance, we cease our effort to establish a Jewish state, at least on one-half of Palestine, which is authorized by the U.N.? Nobody would agree to that. They would say this is absurd. So the expectations that Palestinians—and I’m speaking now about the resistance as a concept; I’m not talking about rockets, whether they were justified or not. They’re not. I think that sending rockets that are going to kill civilians is a crime. But for Palestinians to try, in any way they can, to end this state of affair—and to expect of them to end their struggle and just focus on less than 2 percent to build a country is absurd. That is part of—that’s propaganda, but it’s not a discussion of either politics or morality.
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NERMEEN SHAIKH: One of the things that’s repeated most often is, the problem with the Palestinian unity government is, of course, that Hamas is now part of it, and Hamas is considered a terrorist organization by Israel and also by the United States. I’d just like to read you a short quote from an article that you wrote in 2009 in the London Review of Books. You said, “Hamas is no more a 'terror organisation' … than the Zionist movement was during its struggle for a Jewish homeland. In the late 1930s and 1940s, parties within the Zionist movement resorted to terrorist activities for strategic reasons.” Could you elaborate on that and what you see as the parallels between the two?
HENRY SIEGMAN: Well, I’m glad I said that. In fact, I repeated it in a letter to The New York Times the other day, a week or two ago. The fact is that Israel had, pre-state—in its pre-state stage, several terrorist groups that did exactly what Hamas does today. I don’t mean they sent rockets, but they killed innocent people. And they did that in an even more targeted way than these rockets do. Benny Morris published a book that is considered the Bible on that particular period, the war of—
AMY GOODMAN: The Israeli historian.
HENRY SIEGMAN: Sorry?
AMY GOODMAN: The Israeli historian, Benny Morris.
HENRY SIEGMAN: The Israeli historian, right, then in the book Righteous Victims, in which he said—I recall, when I read it, I was shocked—in which he—particularly in his most recently updated book, which was based on some new information that the Israel’s Defense—the IDF finally had to open up and publish, that Israeli generals received direct instructions from Ben-Gurion during the War of Independence to kill civilians, or line them up against the wall and shoot them, in order to help to encourage the exodus, that in fact resulted, of 700,000 Palestinians, who were driven out of their—left their homes, and their towns and villages were destroyed. This was terror, even within not just the terrorist groups, the pre-state terrorists, but this is within the military, the Israeli military, that fought the War of Independence. And in this recent book, that has received so much public attention by Ari—you know, My Promised Land.
AMY GOODMAN: Shavit.
HENRY SIEGMAN: Ari Shavit. He describes several such incidents, too. And incidentally, one of the people who—according to Benny Morris, one of the people who received these orders—and they were oral orders, but he, in his book, describes why he believes that these orders were given, were given to none other than Rabin, who was not a general then, but he—and that he executed these orders.
AMY GOODMAN: Meaning?
HENRY SIEGMAN: Meaning?
AMY GOODMAN:
What did it mean that he executed these orders, Rabin?
HENRY SIEGMAN: That he executed civilians. And the rationale given for this when Shavit, some years ago, had an interview with Benny Morris and said to him, “My God, you are saying that there was deliberate ethnic cleansing here?” And Morris said, “Yes, there was.” And he says, “And you justify it?” And he said, “Yes, because otherwise there would not have been a state.” And Shavit did not follow up. And that was one of my turning points myself, when I saw that. He would not follow up and say, “Well, if that is a justification, the struggle for statehood, why can’t Palestinians do that? What’s wrong with Hamas? Why are they demonized if they do what we did?”
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PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN NETANYAHU: I know that in our society, the society of Israel, there is no place for such murderers. And that’s the difference between us and our neighbors. They consider murderers to be heroes. They name public squares after them. We don’t. We condemn them, and we put them on trial, and we’ll put them in prison.
AMY GOODMAN: That was Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu talking about the difference. Henry Siegman, can you respond?
HENRY SIEGMAN: Well, the only difference I can think of is that in Israel they made the heads of the two major pre-state terrorist groups prime ministers. So this distinction he’s drawing is simply false; it’s not true. The heads of the two terrorist groups, which incidentally, again, going back to Benny Morris, in his book, Righteous Victims, he writes, in this pre-state account, that the targeting of civilians was started by the Jewish terrorist groups, and the Arab—and the Arab groups followed.
AMY GOODMAN: You’re talking about Irgun and the Stern Gang.
HENRY SIEGMAN: Yes, yes. And as you know, both the head of the Irgun and both the head of the Stern Gang—I’m talking about Begin and Shamir—became prime ministers of the state of Israel. And contrary to Netanyahu, public highways and streets are named after them.
https://www.democracynow.org/2014/9/..._henry_siegman

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Old 06-15-2019, 01:33 PM   #92
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More from same interview


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AMY GOODMAN: In a response to the piece that you wrote for Politico that was headlined “Israel Provoked This War,” the Anti-Defamation League writes, quote, “Hamas has a charter which they live up to every day calling for Israel’s destruction. Hamas has used the last two years of relative quiet to build up an arsenal of rockets whose sole purpose is to attack Israel. Hamas has built a huge network of tunnels leading into Israel with the purpose of murdering large numbers of Israelis and seizing hostages.” Henry Siegman, can you respond?
HENRY SIEGMAN: What I would point out to my former friend Abe Foxman of the ADL is that, too, is Israel’s charter, or at least the policy of this government and of many previous governments, which is to prevent the emergence of a Palestinian state. And they have built up their army and their armaments to implement that policy. And the difference between Hamas and the state of Israel is that the state of Israel is actually doing it. They’re actually implementing it, and they’re actually preventing a Palestinian state, which doesn’t exist. And millions of Palestinians live in this subservient position without rights and without security, without hope and without a future. That’s not the state of—the state of Israel is a very successful state, and happily Jews live there with a thriving economy and with an army whose main purpose is preventing that Palestinian state from coming into being. That’s their mandate.
Quote:
AMY GOODMAN: Why would Prime Minister Netanyahu, who has said he supports a two-state solution, create a situation that makes it virtually impossible, since it leads to this second possibility, which is a one-state solution, to the possibility that he does not want, which would be a majority Arab country?
HENRY SIEGMAN: He obviously believes that a one-state—well, I said earlier in our conversation that he never meant—when he said in his Bar-Ilan speech that he embraces a two-state, that was totally contrived. It was dishonest. Or, in simple English, he lied. And I appreciated the fact that several weeks ago, two weeks ago, he had a press conference in which he said—he didn’t say, “I lied,” but he said, “There will never be a truly sovereign Palestinian state anywhere in Palestine.” So, it’s quite clear now, and one of his friends, the former editor of The Jerusalem Post, who now edits The Times of Israel, had this big headline: “Finally, Now We Know It.” We know he never meant it. He didn’t say this critically; he said this positively. “Finally, he’s back in the fold, and we know he will never allow a sovereign Palestinian state.” Now, what will he do with a majority Arab population? He will do what the head of HaBayit HaYehudi, Bennett, has been advocating and proposed.
AMY GOODMAN: That means Jewish Home party in Israel.
HENRY SIEGMAN: That means the Jewish Home, and the Jewish Home meaning everywhere. And what he has said is that we’ll solve this problem of a potential apartheid in Israel in the following way: We will allow certain enclaves where there are heavy population—heavily populated by Palestinians, in certain parts of the West Bank, and those enclaves will be surrounded by our military. In other words, a bunch of Gazas; there will be several Gazas. Gaza, of course, will be shed or will become one of those enclaves, so they’re not part of the population of Israel. All the rest of Israel—the Jordan Valley, Area C, all of Area C, which is over 60 percent of the West Bank—will be annexed unilaterally by Israel. So, we will have shed two million Palestinians from Gaza. We will have shed another million and a half that live in the cities and in the more populated urban areas, in those enclaves—in those, essentially, bantustans. And the rest, that there are—what did he say? There are 50,000 Palestinians who live in Area C. We will make them citizens, and voila, apartheid is solved. That is—I believed that for the longest time, but that is the plan of Bibi Netanyahu. He may have to settle for less than 60 percent of the West Bank, but essentially he thinks he can solve this problem, this demographic bomb, as it’s been described, in this manner.

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Old 06-15-2019, 02:13 PM   #93
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At this point my guess is someone is doing this on behalf of the US in order to frighten Iran into negotiating, I suspect 'they' are hoping that Iran will see this as the US getting ready to go to war and so will frighten them into giving concessions, if it doesn't work then war it is, either is seen as a win by factions within the Trump Administration.
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Old 06-15-2019, 03:43 PM   #94
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Nothing will be achieved so long as Hamas controls Gaza and Iran and Hezbollah aren’t going to let Hamas be defeated internally regardless of what the citizens of Gaza might want. They have been pawns for decades and it’s disgusting.

And you can accuse Bibi of being corrupt but going back there was no more corrupt leader than Yasser Arafat.

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Old 06-15-2019, 03:48 PM   #95
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Yea, remember last week when Kushner said the US administration had not came to a conclusion as to who the administration believes bares responsibility for the murder of Jamal Kashoggi because the investigation is still ongoing despite overwhelming video evidence, voice recordings of the killings, and flight logs. Even the Saudis admitted it was their doing, just not the crown prince.

Yet, within hours of the attack, the administration comes out laying down 100% blame on Iran for attacking these tankers. Then not even 24 hours release the US sent a destroyer to make their presence known that they will defend our shipping lanes even when the captain of the Japanese tanker says the US evidence is doctored. The captain says they were hit with a missile, there were no Iranian ships or mines like Pompeo is saying.
https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/crew...katada-2053124

Just think about that... someone really wants a war between Iran and the US and it isn't the Iranians.
The US was actually one of the most outspoken nations when it came to condemning the murder of Kashoggi.

Also the US does not want war with Iran. They want to isolate the Iranians economically and politically. However, war would be an absolute nightmare. Not only would the war itself be on Vietnam levels of involvement, but Iran would spread the conflict all over the region to all of the US's allies.

War with Iran just isn't happening. If it did happen, it would have the potential to exceed the Vietnam war, making it the largest US war since WWII. On top of that Iran is a Russian ally, and Russia simply won't allow anyone to engage the Iranians directly on a large scale.
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Old 06-15-2019, 04:26 PM   #96
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And some more...

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AMY GOODMAN: So, these are major establishment Jewish organizations. You said you went to see Khaled Meshaal, the head of Hamas, not once, but several times to meet with him. The U.S. government calls Hamas a terrorist organization. They will not communicate with them. They communicate with them through other parties, through other countries, to talk to them. Talk about your decision to meet with Khaled Meshaal, where you met with him, and the significance of your conversations.

HENRY SIEGMAN: Well, first of all, it should be noted that the U.S. has no such policy of not meeting with terrorist organizations. It has a policy of not meeting with Hamas. That’s quite different. We’re very happy to meet with the Taliban and to negotiate with them. And they cut off hands and heads of people, and they kill girls who go to school. And that didn’t prevent the United States from having negotiations with the Taliban, so that’s nonsense that we don’t talk to terrorist organizations. We talk to enemies if we want to cease the slaughter, and we’re happy to do so and to try to reach an agreement that puts an end to it. And why Hamas should be the exception, again, I find dishonest. And the only reason that we do that is in response to the pressures from AIPAC and, of course, Israel’s position. The largest caucus, parliamentary caucus, in Israel’s Knesset is called the caucus of Eretz Yisrael HaShlema, which the Likud leads.

AMY GOODMAN: Explain that in English, “the land of Israel.”

HENRY SIEGMAN: An “eretz,” in English—in English, it means the whole land of Israel. This is a parliamentary caucus, the largest caucus in the Knesset, which is totally dedicated to not permit any government to establish a Palestinian state anywhere in the land of Israel, headed by Likud, senior Likud members of Knesset, and headed—a party that is headed by the prime minister of Israel. And what boggles the imagination is that no one talks about this, no one points this out, and no one says, “How can you take these positions via Hamas if this is exactly what is going on within your own government that you are heading?”

NERMEEN SHAIKH: Henry Siegman, as you are far more familiar than most, the argument made by Israel and supporters of Israel is that what might be construed as a disproportionate response by Israel to Hamas has to do with the historical experience of the persecution of the Jews and, of course, the Holocaust. So how do you respond to those kinds of claims?

HENRY SIEGMAN: Well, I don’t accept that at all, because the lesson from the persecutions would seem to me—and certainly if you follow Jewish tradition, the lesson of those persecutions, we have always said, until the state of Israel came into being, is that you do not treat people in that kind of an inhumane and cruel way. And the hope always was that Israel would be a model democracy, but not just a democracy, but a state that would practice Jewish values, in terms of its humanitarian approach to these issues, its pursuit of justice and so on.
No partner for peace indeed.

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Old 06-15-2019, 07:07 PM   #97
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The US was actually one of the most outspoken nations when it came to condemning the murder of Kashoggi.



Also the US does not want war with Iran. They want to isolate the Iranians economically and politically. However, war would be an absolute nightmare. Not only would the war itself be on Vietnam levels of involvement, but Iran would spread the conflict all over the region to all of the US's allies.



War with Iran just isn't happening. If it did happen, it would have the potential to exceed the Vietnam war, making it the largest US war since WWII. On top of that Iran is a Russian ally, and Russia simply won't allow anyone to engage the Iranians directly on a large scale.
By US I was specific that is with the Whitehouse under Bolton and Trump. Do you think they care one iota about the consequences? Not at all.

To this day they have not condemned the Saudis one bit. Kushner is still saying they don't know who did it. Stupid.
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Old 06-15-2019, 08:25 PM   #98
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I’m sure I can easily find transcripts of interviews with former Palestinian officials that support my views as well.
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Old 06-15-2019, 08:39 PM   #99
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The Saudi's have the most to gain out of anyone. If I had to bet, they would be behind the attacks, but probably not without the US knowing.
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Old 06-15-2019, 09:24 PM   #100
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I’m sure I can easily find transcripts of interviews with former Palestinian officials that support my views as well.
Who are you referring to?
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