The Stephan trial and evidence-based healthcare

[Weitz]

Originally Posted by troutman

Walmart sued for allegedly selling fake medicine

https://www.aol.com/article/finance/2019/06/03/walmart-sued-for-allegedly-selling-fake-medicine/23740872/

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

If you don't take your kid to a doctor at this point, you have failed as a parent. End of story.

Absolutely, and that’s 10 days before he dies. If you won’t take him then, surely when he is too stiff to go into a car seat and needs to be transported on a mattress though?! I would take a complete stranger to the hospital in that scenario, let alone my own child. It’s just unbelievable.

[Hockeyguy15]

To see your son be that sick and in that much pain, and to not swallow your pride and seek real medical attention is disgusting.

F both of them. They are horrible people and worse parents.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

If you don't take your kid to a doctor at this point, you have failed as a parent. End of story.

I don’t know about that the flu can knock you out so all you are is Moany and lethargic. I would say that moaning and lethargy are not go to the hospital symptoms. I think the 11th is when negligence comes in. Before that it’s symptoms of him getting better and worse with non of the symptoms seaming more alarming than a flu.

Although the not playing normally would likely trigger it I think that could be passed off as just being tired and regaining his strength.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by GGG

I don’t know about that the flu can knock you out so all you are is Moany and lethargic. I would say that moaning and lethargy are not go to the hospital symptoms. I think the 11th is when negligence comes in. Before that it’s symptoms of him getting better and worse with non of the symptoms seaming more alarming than a flu.

Although the not playing normally would likely trigger it I think that could be passed off as just being tired and regaining his strength.

I didn't say go to the hospital, I said go to the doctor. The kid was sick for 8 days at that point. Then he got worse. He's got vague symptoms you can't diagnose. You go to the doctor. How is that even a question?

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

I didn't say go to the hospital, I said go to the doctor. The kid was sick for 8 days at that point. Then he got worse. He's got vague symptoms you can't diagnose. You go to the doctor. How is that even a question?

He kept getting better. Also the question isn’t whether you should go to a doctor it’s whether it’s negligent not to go to a doctor. If your kid is sick on an off for 8 days I don’t believe it’s negligent to not go to a doctor. A reasonable person could believe they are getting better. I think we read these summary’s in a biased manner because we know the outcome was death and that the parents are crazy. If you get rid of the prejudicial information I think you make make it to the 11th before it’s negligent.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by GGG

He kept getting better. Also the question isn’t whether you should go to a doctor it’s whether it’s negligent not to go to a doctor. If your kid is sick on an off for 8 days I don’t believe it’s negligent to not go to a doctor. A reasonable person could believe they are getting better. I think we read these summary’s in a biased manner because we know the outcome was death and that the parents are crazy. If you get rid of the prejudicial information I think you make make it to the 11th before it’s negligent.

Yeah maybe you get to the 11th or 12th (I still it’s reasonable to take a child who is unable to do much of anything for a number of days for medical attention). But regardless, when he has to get fluids through an eye dropper that’s a got to be a limit everyone can agree on? I get that everyone has their own points where they feel they should go to get medical attention for things, but thats rather egregious. And that’s still 4 days before the child dies.

And lest we get bogged down by the outcome here, what about the two weeks of just plain suffering the poor boy had to endure? Even if he had a miraculous turn for the better on the 14th, that’s still needless suffering just because the parents ideology got in the way (at least in my opinion). How could anyone just watch their child suffer?

[Patek23]

Originally Posted by OMG!WTF!

A whole bunch of doctors have misdiagnosed meningitis and sent people home to die with painkillers for their migraine. It does seem like taking your kid to the hospital when he's too stiff to even put in a car seat is a little freaking negligent though.

So I know this is an old post but I just had to circle back because your logic hurt my head. A lot.

So you have found 5 eventual articles claiming misdiagnosis causing death. Claiming “thousands” however. Here are some numbers for you 6000 cases of meningitis a year reported just in the US. So let’s give you that all 5 of those deaths were this year and only in our much larger neighbor to the south. You have a 0.08 percent chance of going to the doctor and they misdiagnose you and you die. They don’t cause your death. Which is the major point that should of been noted in your extremely flawed logic. They just don’t fix it.

Now you know what you should really be worried about? The 70 percent mortality rate that untreated meningitis has. Which is higher in the young as well as the old. That’s a number that I’d be much more scared of then that “misdiagnosis” you claim for the flip side of letting your child die because you did absolutely nothing any reasonable parent should do.

The Stephan’s make me sick and anyone who makes ANY kind of justification for the choices they made is just as bad. There are stupid people who are easily tricked into believing stupid things. Anyone who thinks that you have a better chance of NOT going to the doctor then by actually going ecspecially when it comes to meningitis is a moron.

[GordonBlue]

Originally Posted by GGG

I don’t know about that the flu can knock you out so all you are is Moany and lethargic. I would say that moaning and lethargy are not go to the hospital symptoms. I think the 11th is when negligence comes in. Before that it’s symptoms of him getting better and worse with non of the symptoms seaming more alarming than a flu.

Although the not playing normally would likely trigger it I think that could be passed off as just being tired and regaining his strength.

"Ezekiel suffers a setback. He is “unusually lethargic,” lays in bed the entire day and his only response is to moan unhappily. He doesn’t eat or drink and is exhibiting unusual neurological symptoms.


the not drinking part should have been a concern, though.

last time my daughter was quite ill, I was told by health link if after 8 hours I can't get any fluids into her to keep her hydrated, to get our butts to the hospital. better safe than sorry.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Slava

Yeah maybe you get to the 11th or 12th (I still it’s reasonable to take a child who is unable to do much of anything for a number of days for medical attention). But regardless, when he has to get fluids through an eye dropper that’s a got to be a limit everyone can agree on? I get that everyone has their own points where they feel they should go to get medical attention for things, but thats rather egregious. And that’s still 4 days before the child dies.

And lest we get bogged down by the outcome here, what about the two weeks of just plain suffering the poor boy had to endure? Even if he had a miraculous turn for the better on the 14th, that’s still needless suffering just because the parents ideology got in the way (at least in my opinion). How could anyone just watch their child suffer?

I’m not saying they shouldn’t have taken him to the Doctor. I just see a difference between where I would choose to act and where it becomes negligent and they should be imprisoned.

If it hadn’t been meningitis and was the flu or something what would the doctors have done to relive this pain and suffering. This is where I see people clouding the outcome with the symptoms. Lethargy and Moaning is a kid sick with the flu. It sucks to watch them sick like that but there isn’t a miracle option once infected to eliminate that suffering.

They certainly need to be held responsible for their negligence. I just disagree when that point began.

[Fuzz]

Ya, that's a good point, you call Healthlink, and explain what is going on and they will tell you to go directly to the hospital with that list of symptoms. I've called for a lot less a few times and been told to go to the hospital if I can't see a doctor within 4 hours.

[Fuzz]

^GGG, if it had been the flu, after that long with little food or hydration the vulnerable young and elderly would be treated with at minimum some iv fluids with electrolytes. They'd monitor vital signs so they could see if there was improvement.

[Weitz]

I couldn't imagine having my child at home for 8 days with meningitis. I had it and was home for 4 days (viral though) prior to going to the hospital and my parents got a stern lecture from the Doc and Nurse for not bringing me in earlier!

[Hockeyguy15]

GGG do you have much experience with kids? It sounds like you don't because you have to be more cautious with children.

When my son has been sick he would rather sit on the couch and watch tv than play, so yeah he is less playfull but he is still with it. He still drinks, he will still eat his favorite foods (less than normal though), and he still communicates. He doesn't just lay in bed an moan.

March 6th should have been a hospital trip. Laying in bed moaning, not eating or drinking, showing unusual neurological symptoms is not what a regular sick kid does. Any sane person would be seeking actual medical help at that point, they didn't and are negligent.

A 19 month old kid not eating or drinking and showing unusual neurological symptoms is 100% NOT normal sickness.

[troutman]

Calgary couple convicted in son's death from staph infection handed prison sentences

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calga...e1yKSTpYamv9H4

A Calgary mom and dad whose toddler died because they refused to take the dying boy to a doctor have each been sentenced to 32 months in prison.

[Fuzz]

[Fuzz]

Oh, right, this is the other case of negligent parents not going to the hospital and attempting to treat their kid with witchcraft. How does this happen in Canada, with free healthcare? How ####ing stupid are these people?

[Johnny Makarov]

32 months is only enough if they agree to be sterilized so they don't murder any more kids in the future.

5 years min

[Knut]

To me the sad part about it is that parents like this have been convinced by family members, Naturopaths, Functional Medicine doctors, Chiropractors and facebook groups that they are doing the right thing for their children.

There is no accountability for the groups that are filling their brains with this pseudoscience when kids die.

[CaptainCrunch]

Most of these naturopaths, witch doctors and Frauds use the power of the internet to sell their books, views, doopy a$$ cabage leaf and garlic poultices to stupid people.


I mean I know that we talk about the internet as the super highway of phony news and stupidity and that Facebook and twitter really need to check themselves.


But this is especially true of this crap. Like I said before, the Stephan's were doing heavy advertising and social media to sell which doctor solutions to things like Bi-polar disorders and other nightmare mental issues. That's right, this bottle of tonics made up of Wampa hair, extract of beetle and a slight hint of peppermint will cure your debilitating mental illness.


If anything should be looked at on social media it should be these anti-vaxxer, selling eye of newt cures, and big pharma is holding back that curing cancer can be achieved with a sandpaper massage and a body rub made up of carrot tops and dandelion roots. There needs to be a big line on their video or graphic that says in bright letters "This is not science, b%tch"


Ugh I really hope the Stephan's get the books thrown at them on this, not only because they're so unsympathetic and arrogant. But for a long time they sold a bs book of goods to stupid people hoping for a cure to whatever is affecting them.