A Game of Thrones **BOOKS OFF LIMITS** v2

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

I think this was truly the first bewildering episode of GoT to me.

I can take some pretty ridiculous plot points. I can accept quick transportation now. I can accept a ridiculous and useless adventure beyond the wall to capture a White Walker to try and convince Cersei to help in the battle against the Night King.

This episode had those same faults, but in addition were some faults that are truly heinous. They've completely broken character arcs and are making some characters act the complete opposite of how they should.

Why would Tyrion think he could convince Cersei to surrender? "You are not a monster"????? Nobody in the Seven Kingdoms should know that Cersei is a monster better than Tyrion. I feel like we had this exact same exchange back in season 4. This made no sense.

And then Dany. We had six seasons of Dany on the other side of the narrow sea, starting from rags to eventually becoming the Queen of Meereen. She was impatient at times, and ruthless as she should be, but she learned from her mistakes. She listened to her advisors. She learned how to rule. She learned to be patient.

And now she can't wait a few days to allow her army to rest? She doesn't scout ahead, and instead allows her dragon to take three direct ballista hits?

I feel like these aren't even the same characters. It's so unsatisfying.

Truly, it would have been better if they were killed. At least when people died in this series prior, the characters never strayed from who they were. For better or for worse, dead or alive, the characters felt real.

These characters don't.

You do know that characters develop throughout, right?

Cersei has shown her weaknesses and Tyrion was playing to what he knew was one of those. Not really out of character for either of them. Cersei became a monster when her children died, but believing she is pregnant, he thought she might have softened again. He probably believed that her attempted assassination attempt on him and Jamie was to protect said child. Tyrion himself has become softer through his own development and is more prone to believing the best of others. Varys alluded to this when he said he was there to protect the realm and asked Tyrion what his end goal was. Tyrion still believes the best of Dany even though she's started showing her faults more and more.

Dany's personal story line has also changed to one of desperation. She has spent almost her whole life believing that she is the rightful claimant to the 7 Kingdoms and has worked tirelessly to attain it. She has also shown her ruthlessness in attaining that goal by killing those who refused to bend the knee. The Northerners who were fighting alongside her against the wights were not fighting for her, their Queen; they were fighting for Jon, their King and she knew it.

It was Sansa that suggested their men needed a rest. Do you think Dany was likely to listen to Sansa in regards to anything? She wanted her men and everyone who was coming from the North away from there as quickly as possible, preferably before word got around that it's actually Jon who is the rightful heir to the throne.

I don't believe anything that happened was out of character for any of them. Remember that Jon told Dany who he was before the battle against the Night King. I believe it is that knowledge that is causing a lot of her rash decisions. She watched how the men are drawn to Jon, how they already celebrate him. If she stays and lets her men rest, they have more bonding time with the rightful heir. She can't allow that. Not after all she's been through to get where she is now. But she also can't kill him outright because then she will lose the North. It wouldn't surprise me if Dany kills Jon eventually.

[Azure]

So are they rushing because they want to beat Martin to the end?

This season could easily have been split into two. Focus the entire season on the war with the White Walkers, then next season the war for King's Landing.

Really strange all around.

[neo45]

Originally Posted by Azure

So are they rushing because they want to beat Martin to the end?.

I think they seriously have about a 10 year cushion if that was ever a concern

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by FireFly

I don't believe anything that happened was out of character for any of them. Remember that Jon told Dany who he was before the battle against the Night King. I believe it is that knowledge that is causing a lot of her rash decisions. She watched how the men are drawn to Jon, how they already celebrate him. If she stays and lets her men rest, they have more bonding time with the rightful heir. She can't allow that. Not after all she's been through to get where she is now. But she also can't kill him outright because then she will lose the North. It wouldn't surprise me if Dany kills Jon eventually.

Dany also saw in Meereen that the people weren't originally drawn to her either. But she stopped doing what she was doing, listened to her advisors, listened to the people, and changed. Eventually, the people loved her.

Why is she falling into the exact same arc again when she has already gone through it? More nonsensically, why is her response to act differently than what already proved to work in the past?

She even says in that scene that she knows the looks the people were giving Jon because her people gave her that same look from across the Narrow Sea.

What was the point of it all if she wasn't going to use in Westeros what she learned in Meereen?

Why is she getting desperate? She spent six seasons on the other continent. It was told that she could have come over at any moment with her dragons, but she needed allies to take King's Landing. Now that many of her allies are dead, why is she panicking and forcing them into a battle they aren't ready for?

[AltaGuy]

Originally Posted by FireFly

It wouldn't surprise me if Dany kills Jon eventually.

I think it's going to be the other way around: Jon kills Dany when she goes crazy and wants to destroy KL to get to Cersei, who has proven difficult to kill.
Eventually Cersei is dispatched by Arya or Jaime or even possibly by Tyrion, Jon refuses the throne and feels very sad, and someone completely unexpected gets the throne. Maybe Gendry, actually, as he's now an official Baratheon, and they're also descended somehow from the Targs.

[Nyah]

I would absolutely love it if Tyrion was the one to eventually take out Cersei. It would be a great spin, and an ironic one with that she had the opportunity twice to kill him and stayed her hand.

[sureLoss]

The show has reinforced this the last few seasons: As much as Tyrion is praised for being smart and brilliant, he has been constantly misjudging and underestimating Cersei. He has almost no clue about her motivations and thought processes.

[Hemi-Cuda]

Originally Posted by Azure

So are they rushing because they want to beat Martin to the end?

This season could easily have been split into two. Focus the entire season on the war with the White Walkers, then next season the war for King's Landing.

Really strange all around.

I'm sure HBO had a firm end-date for this series due to budget reasons, it IS the most expensive TV show ever made. And GoT isn't earning them any new subscribers at this point, it's a known product. They're probably far more interested in the spin-off shows at this point for something new to market, and the primary show needs to end for that to happen

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

Dany also saw in Meereen that the people weren't originally drawn to her either. But she stopped doing what she was doing, listened to her advisors, listened to the people, and changed. Eventually, the people loved her.

Why is she falling into the exact same arc again when she has already gone through it? More nonsensically, why is her response to act differently than what already proved to work in the past?

She even says in that scene that she knows the looks the people were giving Jon because her people gave her that same look from across the Narrow Sea.

What was the point of it all if she wasn't going to use in Westeros what she learned in Meereen?

Why is she getting desperate? She spent six seasons on the other continent. It was told that she could have come over at any moment with her dragons, but she needed allies to take King's Landing. Now that many of her allies are dead, why is she panicking and forcing them into a battle they aren't ready for?

She is panicking because everything is falling apart.
She came to Westeros with 3 dragons and the 'greatest army the world has ever seen', and it's now all falling apart - for a bunch of reasons on almost every front.

Whether you like or not how it got to where it is, panic and desperation is probably a fair reaction, though not a very good one

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce

She is panicking because everything is falling apart.
She came to Westeros with 3 dragons and the 'greatest army the world has ever seen', and it's now all falling apart - for a bunch of reasons on almost every front.

Whether you like or not how it got to where it is, panic and desperation is probably a fair reaction, though not a very good one

But things weren't falling apart. Somehow she only lost half her men in Winterfell. Surely they knew they would lose thousands.

Before she "forgot" about the Iron Fleet, she had two dragons. Jorah said in season 3 that one dragon is equivalent to 100,000 men. She had no reason to panic.

All this pain is self-inflicted. She's doing the opposite of worked for her before, and making the same mistakes from 5 seasons ago.

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

Dany also saw in Meereen that the people weren't originally drawn to her either. But she stopped doing what she was doing, listened to her advisors, listened to the people, and changed. Eventually, the people loved her.

Why is she falling into the exact same arc again when she has already gone through it? More nonsensically, why is her response to act differently than what already proved to work in the past?

She even says in that scene that she knows the looks the people were giving Jon because her people gave her that same look from across the Narrow Sea.

What was the point of it all if she wasn't going to use in Westeros what she learned in Meereen?

Why is she getting desperate? She spent six seasons on the other continent. It was told that she could have come over at any moment with her dragons, but she needed allies to take King's Landing. Now that many of her allies are dead, why is she panicking and forcing them into a battle they aren't ready for?

The people of Meereen had different needs than the people of Westeros. They needed a merciful Queen, the breaker of chains. They needed a leader they would respect and then follow into battle. She needed strong armies who would do anything for her and it required patience. She had to earn it, but she could.

You said yourself that she saw the people of the North look at Jon like the people of Meereen looked at her. That's the difference. That's the desperation. There is no amount of patience that will work on the people of the North. They already have a leader they respect and will follow into battle. The only reason they followed her is because of Jon.

Why is she desperate now? Because she knows now that she isn't actually the rightful heir. When she believed she was the only Targaryen left, she had the only claim, she just needed the support. Now, not only has she lost half her armies, she has also lost her claim. You can't see how that would make a person desperate? She knows that if she's on the throne, Jon won't challenge her for it. However, until the throne is hers, she has to keep Jon quiet and in check (part of the reason he went by horse,) and she has to win quickly before even more people become aware that Jon is the rightful heir. The longer it takes, the more people will know.

I don't think enough has been said about the new Lord Baratheon. This was a very smart move on her part, but she didn't turn Jon Snow into Jon Stark and make him less of a bastard. He's already "King of the North" and doesn't need further legitimacy. So she used a distraction to try and ingratiate herself with the Northerners and saw that it didn't work. They were happy for him, but it did nothing to increase her standing.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Hemi-Cuda

I'm sure HBO had a firm end-date for this series due to budget reasons, it IS the most expensive TV show ever made. And GoT isn't earning them any new subscribers at this point, it's a known product. They're probably far more interested in the spin-off shows at this point for something new to market, and the primary show needs to end for that to happen

I noticed on Saturday's SNL they made a joke about once GOT is over everyone is going to cancel their HBO subscription. Is there some truth to that?

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I noticed on Saturday's SNL they made a joke about once GOT is over everyone is going to cancel their HBO subscription. Is there some truth to that?

That's probably the reason they run commercials for their other shows during the first few minutes of that time slot.

[Rando]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I noticed on Saturday's SNL they made a joke about once GOT is over everyone is going to cancel their HBO subscription. Is there some truth to that?

Yeah, HBO subscriptions see a good spike every new season of Game of Thrones. They drop off in the following months.
https://secondmeasure.com/datapoints...o-now-signups/

HBO Now members jumped by 91 percent in the U.S. during season 7 but, after the finale, total subscribers fell into a decline for six consecutive months.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

It would be a major mistake for people to cancel HBO subscriptions. I would easily say that 6 of my top 10 favorite shows right now are on HBO. They're really producing consistently good work since GOT added a major shot of capital into their budgets for other shows....or am I wrong and does HBO not really make much money on GOT due to pirating? I'm sure someone will swoop in and inform us any second now...

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

But things weren't falling apart. Somehow she only lost half her men in Winterfell. Surely they knew they would lose thousands.

Before she "forgot" about the Iron Fleet, she had two dragons. Jorah said in season 3 that one dragon is equivalent to 100,000 men. She had no reason to panic.

All this pain is self-inflicted. She's doing the opposite of worked for her before, and making the same mistakes from 5 seasons ago.

I think its clear that the storyline is advancing her as the new 'mad' queen in a direct reference to her ancestor the mad king.

[Meelapo]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I noticed on Saturday's SNL they made a joke about once GOT is over everyone is going to cancel their HBO subscription. Is there some truth to that?

I would expect there to be some subscription attrition to Crave. According the following article, Crave's subscribers jumped by 1000% leading up to the beginning of the season and then 3000% just before the first episode. I imagine those folks are just there for GoT.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by neo45

I think they seriously have about a 10 year cushion if that was ever a concern

Martin has been promising the winds of winter to be released soon for about 3 years now, and it's been about 8 years since the last one.

Martin is 70 and does not take care of himself. I'd be shocked if he lives long enough to write the final book. It sounds like he's mapped everything out though, so maybe someone else will have enough to work with to finish the final book.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by blankall

Martin has been promising the winds of winter to be released soon for about 3 years now, and it's been about 8 years since the last one.

Martin is 70 and does not take care of himself. I'd be shocked if he lives long enough to write the final book. It sounds like he's mapped everything out though, so maybe someone else will have enough to work with to finish the final book.

Knowing that I think the writers made sure they beat him to the end.

HBO is also advancing the spin-offs much too slow. GoT will end and there will be nothing new for a few years which will result in a massive loss of subscribers.

And there is nothing else coming that is remotely close.

Amazon has the Middle Earth series coming, Netflix has tons of stuff coming, Disney has their stuff coming and HBO has nothing.

[Meelapo]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

It would be a major mistake for people to cancel HBO subscriptions. I would easily say that 6 of my top 10 favorite shows right now are on HBO. They're really producing consistently good work since GOT added a major shot of capital into their budgets for other shows....or am I wrong and does HBO not really make much money on GOT due to pirating? I'm sure someone will swoop in and inform us any second now...

I can't find the article where this was referenced but a large number people who pirate GoT are in a country where HBO is not available or where the episode was censored.

EDIT: Here's the article: https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkai.../#32664d4156ff It's from Forbes and they may have weird paywalls on their mobile version.