CWHL to discontinue operations

[CroFlames]

This website is probably the biggest collection of hardcore hockey fans in Southern Alberta. What percentage of users on this site go or have gone to a CWHL game?

Frankly, I think people WANT to care, but they just don't. Even if this was a 100% fully subsidized league by the NHL, I doubt you get any additional fans than you already do.

The question (IMO) then becomes, why should women's professional hockey be subsidized, but not soccer, softball, volleyball, etc? The general public's interest in those sports is probably the same as women's hockey. Fact is, there are significantly more soccer players than hockey players in Canada.

[troutman]

Why sustainable women's hockey league likely comes with WNHL

Video:

https://www.sportsnet.ca/more/discus...ssive-boycott/

Women’s hockey community divided on sitting out season

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/wome...TrCmZRJa3SOQX0

Coach’s Corner: Women’s hockey is fastest-growing sport in the world

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/...3Y3VaBQDgCNe_c

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

This website is probably the biggest collection of hardcore hockey fans in Southern Alberta. What percentage of users on this site go or have gone to a CWHL game?

Frankly, I think people WANT to care, but they just don't. Even if this was a 100% fully subsidized league by the NHL, I doubt you get any additional fans than you already do.

The question (IMO) then becomes, why should women's professional hockey be subsidized, but not soccer, softball, volleyball, etc? The general public's interest in those sports is probably the same as women's hockey. Fact is, there are significantly more soccer players than hockey players in Canada.

The issue is that there's likely more opportunity in terms of sponsor ship dollars then there is in terms of a group like the NHL investing.



At the same time the problem is that there just isn't a huge presence for sponsorship. looked at the attendance figures for 2018-2019


Montreal averaged about 1500 fans
Calgary 460
Toronto 350
Worchester 83


In Calgary they're probably getting out drawn by the Calgary Rage football team.


Honestly, at this point, there's something really wrong with the marketing effort when you have teams in Calgary and Toronto with 3 digit averages. Frankly that's a crowd of family members more then anything else. The TV ratings weren't super high either



There's really no payoff for the major sponsors.



To me looking at the attendance figures and TV stuff, a league that should be building around inspiring girls to become fans of the game and hockey fans watching a cheaper alternative to the NHL with their family is failing on a grass roots level.

[VladtheImpaler]

I think it's what I said earlier - they have to get into elementary schools and get the little kids (boys and girls) interested, so that they will drag their parents. And then you have to provide a product that will keep those kids interested.
Either that, or sell sex/glam and turn it into roller derby/GLOW.

[moncton golden flames]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

This website is probably the biggest collection of hardcore hockey fans in Southern Alberta. What percentage of users on this site go or have gone to a CWHL game?

Frankly, I think people WANT to care, but they just don't. Even if this was a 100% fully subsidized league by the NHL, I doubt you get any additional fans than you already do.

The question (IMO) then becomes, why should women's professional hockey be subsidized, but not soccer, softball, volleyball, etc? The general public's interest in those sports is probably the same as women's hockey. Fact is, there are significantly more soccer players than hockey players in Canada.

hardcore hockey fan here and have never been to a cwhl game, ever. why? because if i'm going to pay to watch a game live, i will pay to watch boys midget aaa, not womens pro. quality of game is very similar, but lack of physical contact keeps me leaning towards boys midget. i don't care if it's men or women playing, i want the best hockey.

[Scroopy Noopers]

I don’t buy into the belief that minor sports leagues need a professional league in order to create interest.

I don’t see how not having a professional women’s league means less women will want to play hockey. Same thing for the NHL, if it folded people would still play hockey.

So are we actually talking about women’s hockey as a sport? Or creating another business?

[Resolute 14]

In terms of attendance: Calgary played out of seven different arenas this year. Likely because they were confined to wherever there was available ice time. Also, attendance was clearly only estimated, so it's rather impossible to use it as an accurate measuring stick.

Of games they announced some form of attendance figure:
Winsport A: Avg 575 over 4 games
Winsport B: 500 for one game
Max Bell 2: 500 for one game
GW Harris (Red Deer): 800 for one game
Pason Centennial Arena (Okotoks): 280 for one game
Cochrane Arena: 180
Crowchild Twin Arena: 80
They were supposed to play a game at Edge arena 2 as well, but that was forfeited by Worchester.

So the question is, could a team playing consistently out of Winsport A or (preferably because of central location) Max Bell 1 conceivably draw 1000+ fans in this city if it had the weight of the NHL's marketing behind it? Possibly.

The bigger problem though remains location. It makes the most sense to focus on the Northeast for any new start-up league.

[VladtheImpaler]

It's tough in a sprawling city. Honestly, I am not driving to Max Bell or the Saddledome for 3rd rate hockey. If they were playing out of the Southland Leisure Centre, I would go check it out.

[Iceman90]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

So the question is, could a team playing consistently out of Winsport A or (preferably because of central location) Max Bell 1 conceivably draw 1000+ fans in this city if it had the weight of the NHL's marketing behind it? Possibly.

WinSport isn't very transit friendly for people to get to. I think a number of fans who would see a lower level, and therefore also lower cost hockey product would want to be somewhere more accessible.

Max Bell could work.

[The Familia]

Not a chance I would go watch this no matter the location or price. I wouldn't even go if it were free. Clearly there is no interest in this venture or else there would be a sustainable league by now.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Iceman90

WinSport isn't very transit friendly for people to get to. I think a number of fans who would see a lower level, and therefore also lower cost hockey product would want to be somewhere more accessible.

Max Bell could work.

Yeah, that's the problem. I've seen a couple Inferno games, but the location is just not good for me, so I very rarely went. Max Bell 1 (or Corral) gives you the best odds of drawing from across the city. Easy transit access, ideally sized (capacity of about 2000), and a rather comfortable place to watch a game.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by Derek Sutton

I would like to see the women as a 3 on 3 league and think that is the best chance for them to survive independently.
-Reduced roster size, each team would consist of 10 skaters and two goalies
-Shorter games, say 3 15 minute periods, or two 20 minute halves, so a greater chance for tv exposure.
-Would allow more of a showcase for their speed and skill
-Deeper talent pool
-Something that is not currently in the market

4 divisions of 4 teams, round robin tournament style format one week end a month for four months. Each team takes a turn as host city and divisions alternate the week end their games, so each team only play three games a month and they are all the same week end, next week end another division would play their games. Top team in each division would qualify for the final four played in a major pre determined host city. Play for prize money. Round Robin games would each be worth say $10k for a win, Final four games worth $25k and the championship game worth $50,000.

This would allow all players to keep and maintain regular jobs, players could really live and work anywhere, They'd fly in to the host city, practice and then games would commence, minimal travel. Would be great exposure for their players and could build into something more. Biggest advantage is that they would be offering something that is not currently out there being a permanent 3 on 3 league.

NW Division
Van, Cgy, Edm, Winnipeg

Central
Detroit, Chicago, Windsor, Minni

Metro
NY, Phi, Bos, Pitt(?)

NE
Mtl, Que City, Tor, Halifax,

This is a great idea. Well done.

[oldschoolcalgary]

as a comparison, here are the attendance figures for the NWHL for 2018-19:

Minnesota: 1,200
Buffalo: 1,101
Riveters: 721
Boston: 706
Connecticut: 423

this is the NWHL's fourth year of existence.

the WNBA has been around for 20 years...and according to silver, its still not a revenue positive venture...

its easy to throw other people's money at the issue, but the success of the league really is all about the proverbial butts in seats....

[Buck Murdock]

women need a smaller ice surface, as well as different/smaller equipment and different jersey's. It doesn't work when they look the same as men.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Buck Murdock

women need a smaller ice surface, as well as different/smaller equipment and different jersey's. It doesn't work when they look the same as men.

Rename it the Legends Hockey League ask Mitch Mortaza to fund it and promote it.


Here's the new uniforms




I kid I kid

[powderjunkie]

One of the biggest things they are lacking is star power, and patriotic rooting interest that gets us interested for the Olympics.

Legends & Ladies League

50% Retired NHLers and 50% women
Male goalie plays first 30 mins; 2 male +3 female skaters
Female goalie plays 2nd 30; 3 male + 2 female
or maybe you just play 4 on 4 with all female goalies?


I could see it having a bit more of an '80's' feel in terms of players having a bit more time and ice. I don't know the exact rules for women in terms of hitting, but I think you could retain enough physicality (as exists in women's hockey), without full on body checks. Games might start a little slow, but I think there's a good chance for organic competitiveness (especially if teams are built regionally):

Teams:
BC
Alberta
Prairies (SK, Mb, west Ontario)
Western USA (Wisconsin-west)

GTA
Quebec
Maritimes (can fill out with Ontarians as necessary...probably a fair number of players who could identify with maritime heritage across the country)
Eastern USA


The American teams would have much stronger women, but probably fewer legends to draw from. I think you'd also have flexibility in whether a guy plays for his hometown region, or his adopted hometown (ie. NHL team's region)


Obviously the number of interested players might dictate exact regions to some extent. I think you could even consider filling out each roster with one exceptional CHL prospect (perhaps a legend's son as an added incentive to recruit).


Scheduling is the toughest thing, but I think you target your championship game and work backwards. I'd aim for a Monday night semi-finals, Tuesday night championship in the break between NHL reg season and playoffs. I know for me, my hockey appetite is at it's highest in the last week or so of the reg season, and I'm most in the habit of looking for hockey to watch each night. Alternatively, NHL ASG or outdoor games, but I'd hope to simply use those as 'reg season' opportunities.



I think they need to be looking at more of a Big3/Figure skating/Harlem Globetrotters model than the WNBA. There is plenty of 'competitive' women's hockey at the post-secondary level - I think the best path to growing women's hockey is integrating NCAA and CIS (probably more of a pipe-dream than the ladies and legends idea). Throw the best 8 CAD teams and 8 US teams into a bracket together and play down to 1. Obviously those players aren't getting paid outside of scholarships, but it brings the patriotism (and school pride) into play, and is a step to creating 'female hockey stars'.

[Weitz]

But who would be interested in that?

I think the biggest pitfall is hockey fans don't find the woman game appealing. Its very different than high level mens hockey.

Ironically I think its why the NHL refuses to take a lot of the physicality out of their game. I don't think you have nearly the fan base you would have if it was simply a skill sport, which the womans game is.

[Cowboy89]

Originally Posted by Weitz

I think the biggest pitfall is hockey fans don't find the woman game appealing. Its very different than high level mens hockey.

This is it right here, everyone wants to dance around it to not be sexist but quite frankly they draw the level of attendance relative to their quality of hockey. In Calgary that means the following teams should theoretically always outdraw them:

-Flames
-Hitmen
-UofC dinos / Mount Royal Cougars
-Calgary Canucks / Calgary Mustangs
-Calgary Midget AAA Flames / Buffalos / Northstars / Royals
-Calgary Inferno

Asking fans to show up for Woman's professional games is basically asking them to come out for primarily non-hockey reasons because there's an oversupply of superior hockey product in most markets(interest in supporting woman's sport, bringing out girls who are interested because it's woman's sport, etc.) As a generic hockey fan I only have so much time to follow and attend Flames games and then maybe get to the odd Hitmen game. If my time was unlimited there would still be like 6-8 teams I would rather see ahead of the Inferno.

The rationale for funding this league is completely non-commercial (Promotion of woman's sport and providing development opportunities for the women's Olympic teams) and always will be sub-commercial, and as such I think people shouldn't be looking so much to the NHL but rather Hockey Canada / Hockey USA to ante up for this cause.

[Ped]

I like that the women are taking a stand, but think they are being impatient.


Is attendance improving year to year? Has there been growth in the game?

What are ticket prices like?
Is there a viable plan to attract viewers and grow the game?
With worries of market over-saturation, are they untapped markets they could exploit



There's just no way to sustain paying their players more or apparently, what they're getting paid now. High-level sponsorship is only going to come if the viewer numbers are there.


I don't think the NHL should be creating a women's league just for the sake of it. It has to work and that's up to the women to demonstrate that it can.

[craigwd]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

In terms of attendance: Calgary played out of seven different arenas this year. Likely because they were confined to wherever there was available ice time. Also, attendance was clearly only estimated, so it's rather impossible to use it as an accurate measuring stick.

Of games they announced some form of attendance figure:
Winsport A: Avg 575 over 4 games
Winsport B: 500 for one game
Max Bell 2: 500 for one game
GW Harris (Red Deer): 800 for one game
Pason Centennial Arena (Okotoks): 280 for one game
Cochrane Arena: 180
Crowchild Twin Arena: 80
They were supposed to play a game at Edge arena 2 as well, but that was forfeited by Worchester.

So the question is, could a team playing consistently out of Winsport A or (preferably because of central location) Max Bell 1 conceivably draw 1000+ fans in this city if it had the weight of the NHL's marketing behind it? Possibly.

The bigger problem though remains location. It makes the most sense to focus on the Northeast for any new start-up league.

Originally Posted by Ped

What are ticket prices like?

I can respond to the first quote as I was often the person estimating the crowd size for the website. It is just an estimate since I didn't have time to count everyone in attendance.

Playing in multiple locations at odd times certainly didn't help but it was nice to see the season ticket base often show up. The Crowchild game was at a really odd time on a Tuesday night.

Crowd size seemed to really decrease this year over last year. The Inferno were routinely playing to standing room only crowds in Arena B and good sized crowds in Arena A during 2016/17/18. The playoff games in Carstairs did really well. Max Bell 2 was really well attended too.

Tickets were $15 with young kids getting in free. During Wickfest girls teams would get in free when wearing their jerseys.