Flames - how to cure the rot for 2019/20

[Toonage]

We should all know better by now about Francis and his guarantees.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Francis doing his best job at fear mongering today saying don't expect Tkachuk to sign more than a 5 year deal because that he wants to go back to the US as does Gaudreau. Not sure where he's got that information but I tend to feel this is just his opinion which is wrong more than not.

I would believe it for Gaudreau for sure especially if the Flames don't have much success. Who knows about Tkachuk though.

[Kovaz]

Based on the usual accuracy of Francis's reporting at this time of year, I'm much more confident Tkachuk signs a long term deal.

[CN10]

Everyone attempting to chase Monahan and Gaudreau out of town for a bad series is an emotional response to a disappointing playoff. Monahan is by no means a perfect player, but he is one of the best poachers in the league, which I think is a role the Flames absolutely need. He is 0.65 PPG & 0.4 GPG in 20 payoff games and was one of the best players in the 2017 Anaheim series. Johnny is among the most creative puckhandlers in the game and is also at 0.65PPG in his 20 playoff games. These are reasonable top 6 numbers (albeit not elite) and these guys are young enough that they can still learn how to break out in the playoffs. I think this year was a tough learning experience in that when you come into the playoffs as the favorite, teams have specifically game planned how to stop you and you need to be able to play a different game than in the regular season.

The lack or adjustments to Colorado's defensive strategy is the main culprit for the first line's lack of production. Bednar saw a way to slow the Flames down offense (converge on Gaudreau as he gains the blue line) and Peters did not shuffle personnel to respond. Colorado was forcing Johnny to dump it in (which he refused to do), and Monahan is not a great fore checker. This is where Peters should have moved Lindholm or Backlund with Gaudreau at center, or tired Bennett at center on that top line, to give Johnny the option to dump it in and have players that could actually go get it back.

I don't think Calgary's problem is rot within its core players. This team is built on its depth (having several nearly elite players who have to be combined properly) and not a couple elite talents that can run roughshod over people no matter who they play with. Personally, it looks like they are always missing one key piece that allows them to put everything together at the correct time. In the 2015 Anaheim series they were simply not as good of a team and the clock struck midnight on their Cinderella run of a season. In 2017 they were missing a goalie. This year, they were missing that strong fore checking center who could be paired with Gaudreau when the opposition took his stop up after gaining the blue line play away. What is especially frustrating is that the coaching staff didn't even try to see if we had it (Gaudreau - Lindholm - x or Gaudreau - Backlund - x or Gaudreau - Bennett - x).

As for improvements that can be made, I think Treliving looks at moving Brodie and/or Frolik for an upgrade/re-tool to the forward group as we have younger players that look ready to fill their role. Jankowski is someone that could be used as a sweetener with either of those guys and if so, we should see what they have with Lindholm or Bennett as a center. I don't think Neal is going anywhere as probably nobody will take him. They have to find a way to get some value out of the cap hit, so here's hoping he comes back next year with a renewed fire to score and the coaching staff can find a better fit for him in terms of line mates. I think for him to be successful he needs a quicker center than Jankowski. I also don't think we move Gaudreau or Monahan unless a deal comes up with such a return that you simply have to make the trade, but I absolutely think we should not be chaining them together at ES all the time.

[soulchoice]

Francis may be throwing darts but at the same time it's not out of the realm of possibility that Gaudreau and Chucky would want to play in the states at some point. It wouldn't surprise me at all nor would I blame them. Players always will have a preference and if they can adjust the contracts to suit their needs for that, well that is their right.

Doesn't bother me one bit. It's just life and sports.

[CanucksWorstNightmare]

I wonder if this trade wouldn't work for both teams:

To Tampa Bay - Monahan (24 years old)

To Calgary : Point (23 years old)

Tampa gets a player signed to a reasonable contract and get rid of a guy prob wanting north of 9.Calgary gets a hometown boy that needs a new contract but plays with a little more jam even though smaller than Monahan.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by soulchoice

Francis may be throwing darts but at the same time it's not out of the realm of possibility that Gaudreau and Chucky would want to play in the states at some point. It wouldn't surprise me at all nor would I blame them. Players always will have a preference and if they can adjust the contracts to suit their needs for that, well that is their right.

Doesn't bother me one bit. It's just life and sports.

Agreed, not sure why fans get upset by it.
It's not like they're holding out or demanding a trade. Negotiating the term of the contract is normal business.

[GioforPM]

Long form take on the playoffs and the team:

Up front: The top line struggled, that's clear enough. The question for me is whether the current players can learn from it and improve what needs to be improved or whether fundamentally they are regular season performers due to style. To me, Monahan and Gaudreau lacked intensity and a willingness to push through playoff checking. Johnny in particular lacked the intensity I've seen from him in the past - Monahan has always been a less aggressive player, less driven on emotion. So again, is this what they are forever, or can they take another step? To some degree I wonder if the off ice stuff plays a part and if so, can that change? The top line also has to show the ability to go against the opponent top line. It's too hard to constantly match a checking line against guys like Mackinnon, McDavid, etc. given the minutes those guys play nowadays.

The Flames depth, supposedly a strength, wasn't there either. Tkachuk should have been a playoff performer, but he wasn't - injured by Zadorov? I think Treliving has to be willing to part with a couple guys though, and I think he will do it. Frolik can be replaced. I like Backlund a lot, but perhaps he's not the shutdown guy he once was. The third line needs an overhaul. Jankowski is just not suited to playoff hockey. Bennett is (in fact he actually benefits from the looser penalty standards). Neal was bad, but I continue to think they don't use him as best they can. He seemed to be behind the net a lot this series, trying to pass out front - the opposite of where he should be. Like Brouwer, I see what Treliving was trying to accomplish in getting Neal. But he needs to aim younger and quicker. The fourth line was just fine, sop there's that.

Defence: I think not much needs to change other than Brodie might be sacrificed to improve the forward ranks. Valimaki and Andersson were revelations to me - I never expected such poise out of either one. Hanifin is only 22. Hamonic is fine, as long as he can be healthy given his style of play. I'd try and move Stone, and keep Fantenberg around for depth. Kylington will have a real shot at making the team though.

Goaltending: As much as Smith did to repair his image, I wouldn't re-sign him. Not even for a single year. Rittich should be given a chance to start, and let's see if one of the others can take a step.

[Azhouse]

Do all of the Gio traders trade Brodie as well? Does taking the entire number one pairing off the roster for forward depth actually make the team better? Is trading Gio ahead of Brodie going to maximize Brodie's value? Maybe a succession plan should be Brodie this offseason and Gio next (after we see what we have with the young guys).

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

IMO this is an overly dramatic take. I don't think there's anything dramatic about fans discussing the top line fading over the last two months and that Monahan for example seems to never be at his best at the end of seasons. I don't think it's overly dramatic to point to the fact that some of the core players in Monahan and Tkachuk aren't very good skaters and looked slow in the playoffs against a faster Avalanche team. Treliving has shown that if he sees an area that he feels needs improvement he strikes while the iron is hot. Does anyone here really think that he's sitting in his office thinking that things are great and another year is just what the team needs? I don't think he operates that way he's probably already getting a head start on looking at how to improve the team and that could involve some popular players being shipped out. The playoffs may have sucked but the offseason should be fun.

I don’t think the Flames are necessarily that slow - they played at a good pace most of the season, but it was based on quick transitions and crisp passing more than blazing speed. That game completely disappeared in the playoffs. I haven’t seen so many poor passes and puck bobbles in a long time. Some of it was due to Colorado pressure but a lot seemed self-inflicted. If they played like they did before the ASG they would have been plenty fast enough for this series.

[Azhouse]

One more. No matter what the scenario is I can't see Neal going anywhere given his salary and his performance this past year.

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by Azhouse

Do all of the Gio traders trade Brodie as well? Does taking the entire number one pairing off the roster for forward depth actually make the team better? Is trading Gio ahead of Brodie going to maximize Brodie's value? Maybe a succession plan should be Brodie this offseason and Gio next (after we see what we have with the young guys).

Yeah, as much as trading Gio makes sense in the Patriots way, I cannot see them selling the whole top pair. Unless, Philly goes crazy in terms of "win now" and offers one of their top young d-men. I think we cross our fingers and hope Giordano sustains...

[SportsJunky]

Originally Posted by I_H8_Crawford

but this core is a bunch of pussies and will never win in the playoffs.

I thought you had grown out of this kind of thing.

Posters here that call the players gutless and cowardly are just the worst kind of fans. Passion is great. I love it. Let's not act like children.

[Shazam]

Brodie is gone. Gio stays but will be on the #2 pairing.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by edslunch

I don’t think the Flames are necessarily that slow - they played at a good pace most of the season, but it was based on quick transitions and crisp passing more than blazing speed. That game completely disappeared in the playoffs. I haven’t seen so many poor passes and puck bobbles in a long time. Some of it was due to Colorado pressure but a lot seemed self-inflicted. If they played like they did before the ASG they would have been plenty fast enough for this series.

Yeah, at their best they played like Vegas last year. As soon as they had possession, it was up the ice. But that only works when you can pass the puck out of the zone.

They only have Czarnik and maybe Kylington with exceptional wheels. But Gaudreau, Lindholm, Backlund, Mangiapane, Dube, Valimaki, Hanifin, Brodie, Bennett, Hathaway, Ryan are all good to very good skaters. Gio has dropped a step, and maybe so has Frolik, but they aren't behind the play. Andersson and Hamonic are rarely caught out of position. Tkachuk and Monahan, when they are thinking, are able to get themselves into a good spot. Neal's skating is a concern. But that's one guy.

[soulchoice]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

Agreed, not sure why fans get upset by it.
It's not like they're holding out or demanding a trade. Negotiating the term of the contract is normal business.

Exactly. No logical reason for any fan to be upset or take it personally for the org or city when players would rather play elsewhere. Unfortunately being a Calgary Flames fan, it'll happen often. That is why it's imperative the organization drafts well and makes astute trades. So we always have a pipeline of players ready to step in. Especially if we continue to have our top players from the US or Eastern Canada. As those are the type of players who will traditionally want to play elsewhere when given the chance.

Free agents should never be a key option for the Flames for top end talent. Relying on something like that is a bad idea. Especially since the any top tier free agent wouldn't even consider Calgary anyways. We have as much of a chance of landing a top free agent player as the Edmonton, Buffalo, Ottawa, Wpg etc.

Therefore we are left with disastrous overpaid players like Brouwer and Neal. We got lucky with Derek Ryan though, but even he was brought in for the bottom.six and wasn't a top UFA.

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by CN10

Everyone attempting to chase Monahan and Gaudreau out of town for a bad series is an emotional response to a disappointing playoff. Monahan is by no means a perfect player, but he is one of the best poachers in the league, which I think is a role the Flames absolutely need. He is 0.65 PPG & 0.4 GPG in 20 payoff games and was one of the best players in the 2017 Anaheim series. Johnny is among the most creative puckhandlers in the game and is also at 0.65PPG in his 20 playoff games. These are reasonable top 6 numbers (albeit not elite) and these guys are young enough that they can still learn how to break out in the playoffs. I think this year was a tough learning experience in that when you come into the playoffs as the favorite, teams have specifically game planned how to stop you and you need to be able to play a different game than in the regular season.

The lack or adjustments to Colorado's defensive strategy is the main culprit for the first line's lack of production. Bednar saw a way to slow the Flames down offense (converge on Gaudreau as he gains the blue line) and Peters did not shuffle personnel to respond. Colorado was forcing Johnny to dump it in (which he refused to do), and Monahan is not a great fore checker. This is where Peters should have moved Lindholm or Backlund with Gaudreau at center, or tired Bennett at center on that top line, to give Johnny the option to dump it in and have players that could actually go get it back.

I don't think Calgary's problem is rot within its core players. This team is built on its depth (having several nearly elite players who have to be combined properly) and not a couple elite talents that can run roughshod over people no matter who they play with. Personally, it looks like they are always missing one key piece that allows them to put everything together at the correct time. In the 2015 Anaheim series they were simply not as good of a team and the clock struck midnight on their Cinderella run of a season. In 2017 they were missing a goalie. This year, they were missing that strong fore checking center who could be paired with Gaudreau when the opposition took his stop up after gaining the blue line play away. What is especially frustrating is that the coaching staff didn't even try to see if we had it (Gaudreau - Lindholm - x or Gaudreau - Backlund - x or Gaudreau - Bennett - x).

As for improvements that can be made, I think Treliving looks at moving Brodie and/or Frolik for an upgrade/re-tool to the forward group as we have younger players that look ready to fill their role. Jankowski is someone that could be used as a sweetener with either of those guys and if so, we should see what they have with Lindholm or Bennett as a center. I don't think Neal is going anywhere as probably nobody will take him. They have to find a way to get some value out of the cap hit, so here's hoping he comes back next year with a renewed fire to score and the coaching staff can find a better fit for him in terms of line mates. I think for him to be successful he needs a quicker center than Jankowski. I also don't think we move Gaudreau or Monahan unless a deal comes up with such a return that you simply have to make the trade, but I absolutely think we should not be chaining them together at ES all the time.

I wonder how many times Caps fans were over reacting to poor playoffs and running players out of town until they finally got it right. Rumors Flames were in on Ovie the summer before they won the cup and so many said no thanks he isn't a winner. Same when the Leafs traded Kessel

Trade Folik brodie save almost 9 mil in cap. Use jankowski if needed to move Frolik. Hopefully improve draft situation and entertain trading better picks for a fast center or first line winger (lindholm to center) and look for a goalie short term to split with Rittich.

There always a positive with a negative situation

Terrible playoffs results helps BTs chances of locking up rfas to reasonable deals

Tkachuk ended up outside top 30 scorers in reg season and poor playoffs could lead to 6 years 7 mil deal

Bennett still doesn't have the numbers to demand a long term deal

Rittich killed his contract demands down the stretch

It's reasonable that the flames could trade jankowski brodie and frolik and replace all within the system (IMO this is already done with mangipane dube and valimaki)

The flames could add a big money player and potentially move Monahan and backlund down to 2nd and 3rd line roles. It's not a must to dump these guys

[blender]

Out of curiosity and the fact that I know there are people on this board who either know or will do the research:

Who is out there potentially available to acquire that would be the kind of talent/style upgrade we have been discussing?

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by blender

Out of curiosity and the fact that I know there are people on this board who either know or will do the research:

Who is out there potentially available to acquire that would be the kind of talent/style upgrade we have been discussing?

Sign Hayes and take a gamble on Jeff Carter?

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

Anyone saying trade Gaudreau on his contract is losing it.

The same reason he's crazy valuable to the Flames on that contract is the same reason why he'd be crazy valuable as a trade chip.

I argued last offseason that we didn't have to trade Hamilton but that he was one of our best trade chips, his value was high and he did have a worrying lack of compete level. Of course if some of the rumours about those exit meetings are true we probably did have to trade him.

I don't think we have to trade Gaudreau or Monahan. But I think it's Treliving's job to always look for ways to improve the team and because their value is so high you may be able to improve the team by trading one of them because you can change the makeup of the team. IMO both Gaudreau and Monahan showed a worrying lack of compete and grit these playoffs. It would be hard to trade them but they would also fetch a premium return.

There are a few different options. Try and use our other assets to surround them and not have to rely on them as much. Personally I'm not sure that's the most effective response but I understand why some people favour it. Or trade one of them for a young star forward in order to change up the makeup of the team. Gonna be some tough conversation for Flames management, coaches and scouts where they decide who they can win with.