Ontario MP Khan leaves Liberals to join Tories

[RedHot25]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

Perhaps he should have just sat as an independent but, I imagine the fact that his party was rejecting him for doing something right and for the greater good of Canadians probably was a motivational factor.

So, what about the greater good of his constituents - you know, the ones that elected him as a liberal?

(EDIT: Here is riding results from the last election....

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2007/...ct-070105.html

In the 2006 federal election, Khan defeated Conservative candidate Raminder Gill by 5,792 votes, taking 46 per cent of the vote.)

[RedHot25]

I'm sorry, and no sense getting into this discussion here, but there was quite the vitrol against Belinda for doing this, and yet it seems to be a-ok for Kahn to do it. That is what I find interesting. I am not supporting or going against either of them and what they did; I just find the reactions to Kahn's defection and Belinda's defection as quite interesting in comparison.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by RedHot25

I'm sorry, and no sense getting into this discussion here, but there was quite the vitrol against Belinda for doing this, and yet it seems to be a-ok for Kahn to do it. That is what I find interesting. I am not supporting or going against either of them and what they did; I just find the reactions to Kahn's defection and Belinda's defection as quite interesting in comparison.

Calgryborn has already said why there is a difference between the two....not to mention almost everyone on here has said he shouldn't have crossed the floor.

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by RedHot25

I'm sorry, and no sense getting into this discussion here, but there was quite the vitrol against Belinda for doing this, and yet it seems to be a-ok for Kahn to do it. That is what I find interesting. I am not supporting or going against either of them and what they did; I just find the reactions to Kahn's defection and Belinda's defection as quite interesting in comparison.

Belinda did it because she wanted to.

Kahn did it because Dion made him choose - Liberal member or advisor to the PM.

Totally different circumstances. To treat them the same is just like treating a hip check at the blueline the same as a nasty elbow into the glass. Both can cause injury, but one is far more acceptable than the other.

Kahn was A-OK staying in the Liberal party until Dion came around, and you want to pin this decision on Kahn?

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

Before he left politics, Ed Broadbent wrote several proposals to increase accountability to constituents and improve the ethics on the hill. One of them was to stop this party hopping by giving those who no longer wish to sit in their current party a choice: Sit as an independant or call an immediate bi-election.

We should not be ****ed off that Stronach, Khan, Emmerson played by the rules of the game that were given to them. We should be ****ed off that the rules allow this gamesmanship. Of course neither of the two large parties in Canada had any interest in Broadbents accountability suggestions. They were ignored under a Liberal minority AND a Conservative minority.

Again, another reason not to vote for either the Liberals or Conservatives.

The NDP can afford to be all high and might about this. When is the last time someone crossed the floor to their (little) section of the Commons.

Floor-crossing is part of the tradition of the House. It should be kept around.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by peter12

The NDP can afford to be all high and might about this. When is the last time someone crossed the floor to their (little) section of the Commons.

Floor-crossing is part of the tradition of the House. It should be kept around.

Just because it is a tradition...doesn't mean it is a good one. Just like the senate and patronage appointments.

It is only fair to the electorate that if someone wishes to leave a party, they sit as an independent.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Just because it is a tradition...doesn't mean it is a good one. Just like the senate and patronage appointments.

It is only fair to the electorate that if someone wishes to leave a party, they sit as an independent.

I suppose so... I agree not all tradition in Westminster is good.

However,
1) We have responsible government. That means when we elect an MP, we entrust our power to them and give them the flexibility to act within their own discretion while in Parliament. If an MP decides another party would be a more effective vehicle for their values and beliefs, than they should be allowed to cross.

I do have a big problem with MPs, like Stronach and Emerson, crossing for positions of power. Crossing MPs should not be allowed to take Cabinet portfolios or positions as Parliamentary Secretaries.

2) The Commons is a very confrontational arena. Both sides, Opposition and Government, are constantly trying to upset and derail the other. In a minorit government, the government must have the possibility of gaining strategic advantage through the crossing of an opposition MP.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by peter12

I suppose so... I agree not all tradition in Westminster is good.

However,
1) We have responsible government. That means when we elect an MP, we entrust our power to them and give them the flexibility to act within their own discretion while in Parliament. If an MP decides another party would be a more effective vehicle for their values and beliefs, than they should be allowed to cross.

I do have a big problem with MPs, like Stronach and Emerson, crossing for positions of power. Crossing MPs should not be allowed to take Cabinet portfolios or positions as Parliamentary Secretaries.

2) The Commons is a very confrontational arena. Both sides, Opposition and Government, are constantly trying to upset and derail the other. In a minorit government, the government must have the possibility of gaining strategic advantage through the crossing of an opposition MP.

They can still obtain that advantage from independent MP's.

I know what you are saying, but it shouldn't be allowed. Our electoral system places more on the party than the person, therefore, people tend to vote based on the ideas of the party and not the individual. Not all people vote like that but most do. So when one changes parties without the consent of the people who voted him in......he really does not have the authority to speak for thos people.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

They can still obtain that advantage from independent MP's.

I know what you are saying, but it shouldn't be allowed. Our electoral system places more on the party than the person, therefore, people tend to vote based on the ideas of the party and not the individual. Not all people vote like that but most do. So when one changes parties without the consent of the people who voted him in......he really does not have the authority to speak for thos people.

But then Khan can be held accountable by voters during the next electon.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by peter12

But then Khan can be held accountable by voters during the next electon.

True....but why not ask them first?

[peter12]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

True....but why not ask them first?

Because that is not they way our system is supposed to work. Responsible government, represents an entrustment of democratic power to a reprensentative in Parliament, they are only accountable through the conventions of Parliament and Canadian culture while sitting in the House.

Seriously, I wouldn't be averse to a by-election or an MP being forced to sit as an Independent after crossing. It's just sort of silly, regardless of whether an MP moves to another party or sits as an Independent they are still changing the mandate the voters gave them.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by peter12

Because that is not they way our system is supposed to work. Responsible government, represents an entrustment of democratic power to a reprensentative in Parliament, they are only accountable through the conventions of Parliament and Canadian culture while sitting in the House.

Seriously, I wouldn't be averse to a by-election or an MP being forced to sit as an Independent after crossing. It's just sort of silly, regardless of whether an MP moves to another party or sits as an Independent they are still changing the mandate the voters gave them.

It's not the same sitting as an indepedent as it is moving across the idological specrum. That is the difference.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

It's not the same sitting as an indepedent as it is moving across the idological specrum. That is the difference.

Well it is in a way, because you have essentially lost any influence you had before. Even as a backbencher MP.

Besides Khan was one of those centre-right Liberals. He even was a bit of a So-Con. He fits better in the Conservative Party.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by peter12

Well it is in a way, because you have essentially lost any influence you had before. Even as a backbencher MP.

Besides Khan was one of those centre-right Liberals. He even was a bit of a So-Con. He fits better in the Conservative Party.

If you listen to some of the stuff he had to say about the CPC during the election.....I don't think you would be saying that. If you google him, you might find some news clips.

[eazyduzzit]

Oh... the sweet smell of karma.

I'm not a fan of floor crossing but i believe Khan put his views in a nutshell with this statement:

"When I'm given a choice … between a political party and my country, I will always choose Canada and that's why I chose the Conservative government," said Khan.

He is of middle eastern decent, an educated successful man who has served in the Pakistani military - giving him a better vision and skill to deal with middle eastern affairs better than others - i don't see the harm in him serving as an "advisor" to Harper on the issue while staying a Liberal, seems Dion did, and he got what he deserved. After all, he looked like the best choice.

This is where corruption in politics comes from, you are either 100% with your party or it's get the f*** out. It's either you believe in Statements A-Z or it's get the f*** out. If more people where like Khan - and i know there are others - there would be far less corruption in parliment. It's about standing for what you believe in, not what your party believes in. Maybe you are left-wing on a majority of issues but for some you tend to favour the right, when it comes to politics, it's either your 100% for/against or your not a true conservtive/liberal. It seems you either have to fit the mold or your not allowed in and nobody can fit that mold perfectly - which is where corruption starts - because you start to lie and decieve instead of standing for what you truley believe.

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by peter12

Seriously, I wouldn't be averse to a by-election or an MP being forced to sit as an Independent after crossing. It's just sort of silly, regardless of whether an MP moves to another party or sits as an Independent they are still changing the mandate the voters gave them.

True. Then let's just make it a byelection. I voted NDP. My riding is represented by the NDP. If our representative switched over to the Conservatives I would be rip-roaring mad. And you are right, if he sat as an independant but voted with the Conservative block, I'd be mad as hell again. Maybe we should say that if you no longer feel you can support the policies that you were elected on then you should switch parties and run in a byelection or resign your seat.

I'm not surprised that the Conservative supporters are falling all over themselves to find excuses to support this floor crossing. Conservatives are just like Liberals. They talk about bringing accountability and respect back to politics, but all they really want is to find better excuses for doing the same thing the Liberals did.

[Calgaryborn]

A byelection would be a waste of money. We know that the liberals
and company are going to force an election this spring.

Devils'Advocate
If your political position allowed you to reason rather than dismiss Khan's
motives for his actions you just might see some nobility in his move. Khan choose Canada over his political party.

Your sounding like the official opposition who by policy can't find good in anything this government does.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

A byelection would be a waste of money. We know that the liberals
and company are going to force an election this spring.

Devils'Advocate
If your political position allowed you to reason rather than dismiss Khan's
motives for his actions you just might see some nobility in his move. Khan choose Canada over his political party.

Your sounding like the official opposition who by policy can't find good in anything this government does.

From what Devils is saying, he is basically giving credit to the CPC for not just following party lines and hiring the best man for the job not the best supporter of the party. SO he is giving credit to the government.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by RedHot25

I'm sorry, and no sense getting into this discussion here, but there was quite the vitrol against Belinda for doing this, and yet it seems to be a-ok for Kahn to do it. That is what I find interesting. I am not supporting or going against either of them and what they did; I just find the reactions to Kahn's defection and Belinda's defection as quite interesting in comparison.

People have already gone over that issue and have explained why there is such a difference.....can you not see that?

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

And you are right, if he sat as an independant but voted with the Conservative block, I'd be mad as hell again.

Glad to hear that you hate a political party regardless of what the issue is. They could put in universal 100% paid for healthcare, daycare, car services, etc and you'd still be opposed to it?

I didn't think so.

Try evaluating each issue independently... that's what most people do.