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Old 03-28-2019, 06:59 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by FunkMasterFlame View Post
Again, Congress has no authority over the release of the report. These are non-binding resolutions that only "call for" the release of the report that are being blocked. Its entirely up to AG Barr to determine what will be released and when. For the record, Barr has already stated the release date will be "weeks, not months", as he still has to go through the piles of evidence that was collected and redact any sources and methods that would otherwise be revealed.

I know this thread is filled with major Orange Man Bad sentiment, but people need to relax. There's no way Barr is going to censor, manipulate, or otherwise change the thesis of the report when now private-citizen Mueller could immediately go in front of Congress, or on any major news network and start ringing alarm bells (which has also yet to happen).
You have some high hopes there that Barr hasn't given a very positive spin to a damning report. Fact is: we don't know. Until we have the report, you can't say either way.

A few things about Barr:
1. Made a judgement call on obstruction that may not have been his to make;
2. Wrote a freaking memo about how a sitting US President was above the law - unsolicited - and then was subsequently named AG.

Mueller isn't going to go on network news: that is proof of nothing, an indication of nothing.

Will you change your tune if none of the Mueller report, or only a very slim portion, is released in the coming months? Something tells me the answer is no.
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Old 03-28-2019, 07:06 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by FunkMasterFlame View Post
Again, Congress has no authority over the release of the report. These are non-binding resolutions that only "call for" the release of the report that are being blocked. Its entirely up to AG Barr to determine what will be released and when. For the record, Barr has already stated the release date will be "weeks, not months", as he still has to go through the mountains of evidence that was collected to redact any sources and methods that would be revealed.

I know this thread is filled with major Orange Man Bad sentiment, but people need to relax. There's no way Barr is going to censor, manipulate, or otherwise change the thesis of the report when now private-citizen Mueller could immediately go in front of Congress or on any major news network and start ringing alarm bells.
No need for common sense here

Let them run wild with armchair conspiracies! Just more entertaining for the majority of us
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Old 03-28-2019, 07:13 PM   #83
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You have some high hopes there that Barr hasn't given a very positive spin to a damning report. Fact is: we don't know. Until we have the report, you can't say either way.

A few things about Barr:
1. Made a judgement call on obstruction that may not have been his to make;
2. Wrote a freaking memo about how a sitting US President was above the law - unsolicited - and then was subsequently named AG.

Mueller isn't going to go on network news: that is proof of nothing, an indication of nothing.

Will you change your tune if none of the Mueller report, or only a very slim portion, is released in the coming months? Something tells me the answer is no.
If you think Mueller would just stay silent and allow Barr to cover-up his "damning report" then I have a bridge to sell you.

The fact is, Mueller punted on obstruction and recommended no further indictments regarding collusion (not to imply that any of his previous indictments were related to collusion, because they weren't). Barr and Rosenstein together determined there wasn't a case for obstruction. They released a brief summary to satiate the masses, and are now working on releasing the rest of the report minus redactions for sources and methods, which is expected to drop within weeks, not months.

I know its hard to believe based on the unrelenting, one-sided media narrative for the past 3 years, but maybe, just maybe, Trump really didn't collude, conspire, or coordinate with Russians to steal the 2016 election.

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Old 03-28-2019, 07:27 PM   #84
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I’m confused by the no conspiracy between the trump campaign and the Russian government vs the charges against stone related to wiki leaks.

Does Barr’s statement assume that Stone is not part of the Trump campaign? Or that wiki leaks is not the Russian government or that what stone did does not constitute Conspiracy?

Or is it just typical politics that if you find dirt you use it so long as you didn’t break any laws squiring the dirt.

If you read the indictment Stone clearly was in contact with wiki leaks.
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Old 03-28-2019, 07:35 PM   #85
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Wikileaks is not the Russian government. It is also not illegal to contact Wikileaks. What is illegal is to stupidly lie about being in contact with Wikileaks to a Special Prosecutor, especially when said Special Prosecutor has access to all of your emails and phone logs, which is what Stone was actually indicted for. He was never indicted for the act of being in contact with Wikileaks, and there has been no evidence presented he obtained any special access or documents from his contacts with Wikileaks.

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Old 03-28-2019, 07:53 PM   #86
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Wikileaks is not the Russian government. It is also not illegal to contact Wikileaks. What is illegal is to stupidly lie about being in contact with Wikileaks to a Special Prosecutor, when said Special Prosecutor has access to all of your emails and phone logs, which is what Stone was indicted for. He was never indicted for the act of being in contact with Wikileaks, and there has been no evidence presented he obtained any special access or documents from his contacts with Wikileaks.
I realize that he is indicted for lying to the prosecutor but if you read the inditememt you see the “facts” that the inditememt is based on.

Quote:
6. By in or around early August 2016, STONE was claiming both publicly and privately to have communicated with Organization 1. By in or around mid-August 2016, Organization 1 made a public statement denying direct communication with STONE. Thereafter, STONE said that his communication with Organization 1 had occurred through a person STONE described as a “mutual friend,” “go-between,” and “intermediary.” STONE also continued to communicate with members of the Trump Campaign about Organization 1 and its intended future releases.
Then you read the Barr report and it states

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The Special Counsel defined “coordination” as an “agreement—tacit or express—between the Trump Campaign and the Russian government on election interference.”
So like you say Wikileaks is not the Russian government, Stone is not the Trump Campaign. So the statement in Barr’s report of the Trump Campaign did not conspire or coordinate with the Russian government becomes pretty meaningless in all but the most headline charge.

But from the Stone inditememt and Barr’s letter the following appears to have occurred

The Russian government hacked the DNC
Wikileaks got the documents from the Russian government
Roger Stone coordinates with Wikileaks on the release of the documents
Trump Campaign coordinates with Roger Stone about the release of documents.

So yes in that exchange the Teump Campaign doesn’t coordinate with the Russian government.

However is the above sequence of events legal and just politics?

Or is their just a lack of evidence to tie each of the above elements together beyond a reasonable doubt.

To me the most interesting part of this is was the Teump Campaigns actions legal or is their insufficient evidence to sustain a conviction? Barr’s summary leaves a huge gap between media which hunt and smart criminals.

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Old 03-28-2019, 08:07 PM   #87
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Wikileaks stated publicly in June 2016 that they had more damaging info on Hillary that they were going to release. Stone reached out to Wikileaks in July 2016 in an attempt to find out what that damaging info was, but there has been no evidence presented that he received anything from Wikileaks prior to their release of Podestas emails in Oct 2016. Mueller has had complete access to Stones emails, text messages and phone logs from this timeframe, yet he did not find sufficient evidence to charge Stone with collusion, conspiracy or coordination, only perjury.

It also has never been proven that Russians hacked either the DNC or Podesta emails. The FBI outsourced the investigation of the DNC servers to a private company called Crowdstrike, which has never made their evidence for claims of Russian hacking public.

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Old 03-28-2019, 08:09 PM   #88
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GGG:

As I understand it, conspiracy required proof of an agreement between the Trump campaign and the Russians, that caused them (the Russians) to change the course of their actions.

That would be a pretty high hurdle, especially because Russian interference in the US election was well underway by the time the meetings were going on in Trump Tower, etc etc.

Not surprising that there was a recommendation that conspiracy had not been found because of the legal test.
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Old 03-28-2019, 08:14 PM   #89
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If you think Mueller would just stay silent and allow Barr to cover-up his "damning report" then I have a bridge to sell you.

The fact is, Mueller punted on obstruction and recommended no further indictments regarding collusion (not to imply that any of his previous indictments were related to collusion, because they weren't). Barr and Rosenstein together determined there wasn't a case for obstruction. They released a brief summary to satiate the masses, and are now working on releasing the rest of the report minus redactions for sources and methods, which is expected to drop within weeks, not months.

I know its hard to believe based on the unrelenting, one-sided media narrative for the past 3 years, but maybe, just maybe, Trump really didn't collude, conspire, or coordinate with Russians to steal the 2016 election.
You seem very sure of two unknowables:

1. Report won’t be damning;
2. Report will be released.

I’m not at all convinced that Mueller won’t be prevented from testifying either. At any rate, if you’re correct and both of the above are true, I’ll be very surprised.
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Old 03-28-2019, 08:50 PM   #90
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Your belief that the report will be "damning" is just as speculative as my belief it won't be. However, we do already know that it does not contain any more recomendations for indictments, which gives support for my side.

And yes, it is also my belief that the report will be released soon with mininal redactions. I believe that because thats what Barr has stated publicly. I also believed acting AG Whitaker when he said the Mueller report would be released "soon" back in January, which was proven to be true.

I guess we'll find out soon enough.

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Old 03-28-2019, 09:17 PM   #91
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I’m not positive it will be conclusive at all, but I’m not blind to the circumstances of the many connections already known between Trump cronies and Russia. So many that I really question the sanity of anyone waving their arms and yelling “nothing to see here!” (or “no collusion!”)

Hopefully we get the report. What will it tell you if we don’t?
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Old 03-28-2019, 09:22 PM   #92
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I would be extremely shocked and terribly dissapointed if Muellers report is not released in some form. Trump has every reason to want to put this Russiagate nonsense to bed as quickly as possible though, so I really can't see a scenario where it isn't released.

What will it tell you if its released and the conclusions Mueller reached are in line with Barrs summary?
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Old 03-28-2019, 10:46 PM   #93
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I would be extremely shocked and terribly dissapointed if Muellers report is not released in some form. Trump has every reason to want to put this Russiagate nonsense to bed as quickly as possible though, so I really can't see a scenario where it isn't released.

What will it tell you if its released and the conclusions Mueller reached are in line with Barrs summary?
Are you serious? Trump doesn’t want to put it to bed. He will be bringing up the investigation for the next year and a half every chance he gets. I would be shocked if it isn’t the main theme of his re-election campaign.

And what will it tell if the report is released and is heavily redacted and fails to answer many of the questions people are expecting answers to?

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Old 03-29-2019, 12:18 AM   #94
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Oddly, with the exception of Barr and Rosenstein making the call on obstruction - which is weird and requiring of an explanation - the process of summarizing and releasing the report is happening pretty much as I would have expected in a normal (i.e. not Trump and crazy GOP) government.



The summary is just that, a way to get out the bottom line as quickly as possible to meet reporting requirements. The report, which unsurprisingly is apparently over 300 pages (which I would think does not include any appendices, if there are any) will have to be redacted, a process that should take weeks in the circumstances (as Barr seems to have indicated it would). And Barr has given assurances he will release a redacted version, which I'll give him the benefit of the doubt on.



To my mind, the big question is whether the redactions will obliterate all or most of the information that's damaging to Trump, and whether those redactions are proper (i.e. to protect ongoing investigations and the grand jury) or political.



And the danger for the Yanks is that - by the time it is released and digested - a good chunk of the public will have already accepted the simple narrative set out in Barr's summary and Trump's bloviating in the media, and won't bother looking at the details that point to misconduct/criminality. Subtlety doesn't seem to be their forte of late.
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Old 03-29-2019, 01:20 AM   #95
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https://twitter.com/user/status/1111419775601635330

Trump in mid-season form druring his campaign rally in Michigan today. The twitter thread has all the highlights.
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Old 03-29-2019, 01:24 AM   #96
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Are you serious? Trump doesn’t want to put it to bed. He will be bringing up the investigation for the next year and a half every chance he gets. I would be shocked if it isn’t the main theme of his re-election campaign.

And what will it tell if the report is released and is heavily redacted and fails to answer many of the questions people are expecting answers to?
I meant that by releasing the Mueller report the accusations of Russiagate collusion nonsense would be put to bed. Obviously Trump is going to exploit his vindication as much as possible, most likely all the way to a second term.

And I already answered your other question. Why didn't you answer mine? What happens if Barr releases a minimally redacted version of Mueller's report that confirms the summary of no collusion, no obstruction? Will you be able to stop attacking Trumps patriotism and acknowledge that he is not a compromised agent of Russia?

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Old 03-29-2019, 01:48 AM   #97
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Oddly, with the exception of Barr and Rosenstein making the call on obstruction - which is weird and requiring of an explanation - the process of summarizing and releasing the report is happening pretty much as I would have expected in a normal (i.e. not Trump and crazy GOP) government.
Essentially, Mueller was unable to come to a decision about obstruction based on his collected evidence and various legal interpretations of the law, so he punted that question for Barr and Rosenstein to decide. They concluded that, for multiple reasons, Trump could not be charged with obstruction for a crime that he did not commit.

Here's an article that goes into more depth around the legal questions surrounding obstruction and presidential powers.

https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/...ler-abdicates/

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Old 03-29-2019, 07:49 AM   #98
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Will you be able to stop attacking Trumps patriotism and acknowledge that he is not a compromised agent of Russia?
I would question his patriotism, not because of him colluding with Russia, but because he has continually used his presidency in order to enrich himself and those around him. This is a presidency highlighted by nepotism and a leader who has been overly willing to dismantle the American empire in an attempt to make a quick buck. The flag hugging president doesn't care about the citizens of the country, he cares about making money for himself.

He is the laziest president, one who spends more time trying to raise funds for himself than actual governance. To this day I question why he wants to be president, because he hasn't actually been a president. He is a useless skin sack who is surrounded by cronies and fools.
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Old 03-29-2019, 07:52 AM   #99
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Old 03-29-2019, 08:00 AM   #100
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Essentially, Mueller was unable to come to a decision about obstruction based on his collected evidence and various legal interpretations of the law, so he punted that question for Barr and Rosenstein to decide.
That is a charitable way to put it.

An alternative explanation, and perhaps a more legally correct one, is that Mueller punted the obstruction question for Congress to decide.

Barr just jumped in and provided an answer that he was not called on to give.
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