If you were allowed to carry a concealed gun, would you?

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by worth

Possibly. But would it not be the criminal and the concealer dying? I believe urban encounters take place within 18 feet.

Come on now. This is ridiculous. Do you really think a criminal and, no offense to your skills, you, are going to keep things between the pair of you in an "urban encounter" in a bank, bar or liquor store?

Originally Posted by worth

I don't see bystanders as a huge problem.

Well maybe you don't see bystanders as a huge problem, but since I'd be a bystander, I would see some huge problems. As in "hmm, this clown thinks he's Dirty Harry and he's shooting at the guy who wants the money in the till, and that guy is shooting back at him. This is a problem".

You seem to have some idea in your head that a couple courses and a waiting list guarantees that some legally armed guy isn't also a moron, hothead, potential lunatic or wanna-be supercop.

Someone says "I would be in increased danger if legally armed citizens were roaming the streets" and your answer is "there is no danger, because those people took the courses and waited a while". I don't buy that answer. I don't have that much faith in the gun education/waiting/vouching system.

I'm sure all of us could pass the courses, wait a while and get our buddies to sign a form saying we are reasonable people. It doesn't mean it's safe if we all walk around with a gun on our hip.

[worth]

I don't think it is legal to take weapons into a bar bank or liquor store.

Here, I found some statistics that show most people who carry aren't what you're describing:

• North Carolina reports 0.2% of their 263,102 holders had their license revoked in the 10 years since they have adopted the law — a lower proportion than the crime rate among North Carolina police officers. Revocation of license is for any criminal conviction, and need not involve an illegal firearm usage. Revocations typically arise from DUI.
• Of the 14,000 licenses issued in Oregon, only 4 individuals (0.03%) were convicted of criminal (though not necessarily violent) use or possession of a firearm.

Here's a link to read about gun issues:

http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a39b152d6436a.htm

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

What if it was mandatory for every citizen to take gun corses, gun safety, and were forced to carry a gun at all times. Would this increase or decrease the number of gun deaths?

Should we ask the Swiss?

[Azure]

I think that certain people 'need' to carry the a gun for safety....if you work in law enforcement, and deal with the scum of the earth everyday, a gun can certainly help you out. I mean outside of work.

I also know many military personnel in the US who carry concealed weapons for personal protection, and a few of them have used them to defend themselves. Not to necessarily shoot at someone...but to hold someone at gunpoint until help arrives.

You don't have to shoot people....just as a intruder can hold you at gunpoint, you can detain them as well.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by worth

I don't think it is legal to take weapons into a bar bank or liquor store.

Here, I found some statistics that show most people who carry aren't what you're describing:

• North Carolina reports 0.2% of their 263,102 holders had their license revoked in the 10 years since they have adopted the law — a lower proportion than the crime rate among North Carolina police officers. Revocation of license is for any criminal conviction, and need not involve an illegal firearm usage. Revocations typically arise from DUI.
• Of the 14,000 licenses issued in Oregon, only 4 individuals (0.03%) were convicted of criminal (though not necessarily violent) use or possession of a firearm.

Here's a link to read about gun issues:

http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a39b152d6436a.htm

I think you missed the point. "You" and "criminal" are not going to be able to keep it between the two of you in any "urban encounter" in a public place. You said it would only be the criminal or the carrier getting killed. I don't believe that. If you don't like bar, bank or liquor store, how about grocery store, post office and gas station?

Anyhow, so far you have linked to a site call canadiangunnutz and also to what appears to be a post on a message board. It's kind of like saying "Ford makes great cars, and if you don't believe me, ask people who love Ford cars". You aren't going to make many sales with that strategy.

Speaking of cars, I found out that 42 thousand people died in automobile accidents in the States in 1999. The latest link you provided says 35 thousand people in the States die annually from gunshot wounds. That site seems to go pretty fast and loose with the facts, but I'll believe that one. Wow.

[MrMastodonFarm]

No, what the hell do I need a gun for.

[worth]

Do I really have to list the citations for you?

[1] Leape LL. "Error in Medicine." JAMA. 1994; 272(23): 1851-57.
[2] Suter E. "Guns in the Medical Literature - A Failure of Peer Review." Journal of the Medical Association of Georgia. March 1994; 83: 133-48. [3] Kleck G. Point Blank: Guns and Violence in America. New York: Aldine de Gruyter. 1991.
[4] Suter EA, Waters WC, Murray GB, et al. "Violence in America - Effective Solutions." Journal of the Medical Association of Georgia. Spring 1995, forthcoming.
[5] Fingerhut LA, Ingram DD, Feldman JJ. "Firearm Homicide Among Black Teenage Males in Metropolitan Counties: Comparison of Death Rates in Two Periods, 1983 through 1985 and 1987 through 1989." JAMA. 1992; 267:3054-8.
[6] Hammett M, Powell KE, O?Carroll PW, Clanton ST. "Homicide Surveillance - United States, 1987 through 1989." MMWR. 41/SS-3. May 29,1992.
[7] FBI. Uniform Crime Reports Crime in the United States 1991. Washington DC: US Government Printing Office. 1992
[8] National Safety Council. Accident Facts 1992. Chicago: National Safety Council. 1993.
[9] Webster D, Chaulk, Teret S, and Wintemute G. "Reducing Firearm Injuries." Issues in Science and Technology. Spring 1991: 73-9.
[10] Christoffel KK. "Towards Reducing Pediatric Injuries From Firearms: Charting a Legislative and Regulatory Course." Pediatrics. 1992; 88:294-300.
[11] Federal Bureau of Investigation, US Department of Justice. Uniform Crime Reports Crime in the United States 1993. Washington DC: US Government Printing Office. 1994. Table 5.
[12] Dawson JB aand Langan PA, US Bureau of Justice Statistics statisticians. "Murder in Families." Washington DC: Bureau of Justice Statistics, US Department of Justice. 1994. p. 5, Table 7.
[13] US Bureau of Justice Statistics. "Murder in Large Urban Counties, 1988." Washington DC: US Department of Justice. 1993.
[14] Narloch R. Criminal Homicide in California. Sacramento CA: California Bureau of Criminal Statistics. 1973. pp 53-4.
[15] Mulvihill D et al. Crimes of Violence: Report of the Task Force on Individual Acts of Violence." Washington DC: US Government Printing Office. 1969. p 532.
[16] Wheeler ED and Baron SA. Violence in Our Schools, Hospitals and Public Places: A Prevention and Management Guide.? Ventura CA: Pathfinder. 1993.
[17] Kellermann AL. and Reay DT. "Protection or Peril? An Analysis of Firearms-Related Deaths in the Home.? N Engl J. Med 1986. 314: 1557-60.
[18] Kellermann AL, Rivara FP, Rushforth NB et al. "Gun ownership as a risk factor for homicide in the home.? N Engl J Med. 1993; 329(15): 1084-91.
[19] Japenga A. "Gun Crazy.? San Francisco Examiner. This World supplement. April 3, 1994. p. 7-13 at 11.
[20] Max W and Rice DP. "Shooting in the Dark: Estimating the Cost of Firearm Injuries.? Health Affairs. 1993; 12(4): 171-85.
[21] Nieto M, Dunstan R, and Koehler GA. "Firearm-Related Violence in California: Incidence and Economic Costs.? Sacramento CA: California Research Bureau, California State Library. October 1994.
[22] McGonigal MD, Cole J, Schwab W, Kauder DR, Rotondo MF, and Angood PB. "Urban Firearms Deaths: A Five-Year Perspective.? J Trauma. 1993; 35(4): 532-36.
[23] Hutson HR, Anglin D, and Pratss MJ. "Adolescents and Children Injured or Killed in Drive-By Shootings in Los Angeles.? N Engl J Med. 1994; 330: 324-27.
[24] Zedlewski EW. Making Confinement Decisions - Research in Brief. Washington DC: National Institute of Justice, U.S. Department of Justice. July 1987.
[25] United Press. "China seizes 120,000 guns.? October 21, 1994.
[26] Cramer C and Kopel D. Concealed Handgun Permits for Licensed Trained Citizens: A Policy that is Saving Lives. Golden CO: Independence Institute Issue Paper #14-93. 1993.
[27] Cramer C and Kopel D. "Shall Issue?: The New Wave of Concealed Handgun Permit Laws. Golden CO: Independence Institute Issue Paper. October 17, 1994.
[28] Aborn R, President of Handgun Control Inc. Letter to the Editor. Washington Post. September 30, 1994.
[29] Thomson Charles, Associate Director for Law Enf

[jolinar of malkshor]

I just want to say to those people that think there is no reason for firearms. First off, most responsible gun owners use them for recreation or collection. Second, my family is the most important thing in my life and I would rather have access to a firearm and never use it rinstead of not having access to a firearm when I need it.

I am a firearm owner. If it was ever legal to carry a concealed weapon....I might, I might not. I guess it all depends on where I was planning on going or what I was doing that day.

I just recieved my Grandfathers service revolver.....and I for one am proud to own it and be able to shoot it at a range if I want to. My Grandfather also had many other firearms....one was a early 1800 cap and ball revolver that the cowboys used in the wild west. Should I have to destroy it because some people don't think firearms are necessary on this planet? No....it is a peice of history.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by worth

Do I really have to list the citations for you?

Yeah thanks for that. Do any of those citations say "this is not a post on a message board by some anonymous dude who likes guns"? I don't have the time to research it myself.

[worth]

wow...

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by worth

wow...

Laugh.

That's it?

You don't really expect us to take as gospel what a guy called "Amerika" on a message board says, do you?

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

I just want to say to those people that think there is no reason for firearms...

Except that I don't believe that anyone here is advocating the abolishment of private ownership for firearms. Personally, I have no problem with it; what I have a problem with is any private citizen's right to carry a concealed handgun in public. Big difference. Keep your guns. Just don't expect me to be happy about your decision to load it and hide it in your pants for a night on the town.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Except that I don't believe that anyone here is advocating the abolishment of private ownership for firearms. Personally, I have no problem with it; what I have a problem with is any private citizen's right to carry a concealed handgun in public. Big difference. Keep your guns. Just don't expect me to be happy about your decision to load it and hide it in your pants for a night on the town.

There have been a lot of people that said there is absolutly no reason for handguns.

What about carrying firearm visible to the public?

What about off duty police officers?

[Azure]

I think police officers should carry a firearm at ALL times.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

What about off duty police officers?

What would be the purpose? In this country especially, I see no reason for off duty cops or military personnel to carry a pistol.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

What would be the purpose? In this country especially, I see no reason for off duty cops or military personnel to carry a pistol.

The Purpose is so that if they are around some kind of situation they can take control.....without their firearm...it is much harder to exert control over some situations.

Not to mention they are POLICE....as far as I am concerned they are never off duty. Why can you not trust a police officer with a firearm when he is not on duty? You look at that poor officer in Airdrie who got the **** kicked out of him but two punks. Don't think that would have happened if he had his tools with him.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

I think as soon as you start carrying a gun the likelihood of you being killed by a gun probably increases exponentially. If you pull out your gun to defend yourself, that may prompt whoever is assaulting you to pull out their gun and kill you. If you don't have a gun, you're not a lethal threat, meaning criminals may be more inclined not to 'remove the threat' by killing you. Just off the top of my head though...

Well said Ag. I agree with that.

[moon]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

The Purpose is so that if they are around some kind of situation they can take control.....without their firearm...it is much harder to exert control over some situations.

Not to mention they are POLICE....as far as I am concerned they are never off duty. Why can you not trust a police officer with a firearm when he is not on duty? You look at that poor officer in Airdrie who got the **** kicked out of him but two punks. Don't think that would have happened if he had his tools with him.

How will a dude in plain clothes with no ID waving a gun around control a situation? Even if he had a badge how many people are going to believe it or even be rational enough to believe it?

How many of these situations come up in a police officers life?

I have never been in a situation where having a gun could have "controlled" the situation and don't know anyone who has either. Are off duty police officers more likely to find themselves in these situations then me?

[Shawnski]

A bit divided on the issue.... on one hand, I have not had to deal with anyone using deadly force, but if I did, I would probably do it hand to hand.

On the other, I would love to see Flames_Gimp have a couple hidden turrets on his chair to blow away those numbnuts that jump up in front of him when the Flames score.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by moon

How will a dude in plain clothes with no ID waving a gun around control a situation? Even if he had a badge how many people are going to believe it or even be rational enough to believe it?

How many of these situations come up in a police officers life?

I have never been in a situation where having a gun could have "controlled" the situation and don't know anyone who has either. Are off duty police officers more likely to find themselves in these situations then me?

Ah...there are plain cloths officers on the beat every day that do the exact same thing and we don't see problems with that do we?

Everyone of of us has seen crimes being committed. If you haven't...then you need some more life experience. You haven't been in a situation where a gun was needed because you have never approached someone to try and stop a crime from being committed or tried to arrest someone for committing a crime. There is where the situation becomes dangerous.