[Rumour] UPD: Flames are done for the day. Zucker deal does not go through

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Yeah, I tend to agree, but I also don't think that comparatively speaking Kylington+1st is in line value wise with other trades over the past week. Is the term attached to Zucker worth more than Kevin Hayes?

I am guessing this is not a trade that I would have loved.

Exactly my thoughts.

I think kylington is a better prospect than lemieux for sure.

1st and kylington for kreider is a deal I could see but not for Zucker.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Zucker is just one year removed from a 30 goal season
And again Boom said it was significantly more than Frolik+1st. I don't think Neal+1st is that.

But his only one - that year may be an outlier, given the years before (21/13/22 goals) and the 3/4 year after (15 goals in 62 games).

I can see why Treliving would like Zucker and his contract. Like you, I'm having trouble thinking of a value. Lots depends on what Minnie thinks about the next few years.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

That 2005 season could be very analogous.

Lost a 1st round heartbreaker when they couldn't score enough goals. They were the class of the league defensively, but didn't have enough finish up front.

The Flames and Ducks both scored 17 goals in the series. Iggy scored 8 points in 7 games, 5 goals!, but it wasn't enough. Yelle, McCarty, Amonte and Kobasew couldn't get it done.

That year the ducks added Friesen and Sean O'Donnell at the deadline. They combined for 3 goals in the series.

The Flames can definitely score goals this year, they are probably as close to the opposite team formulation as that 06 group. The question for me is, can they score ENOUGH goals. Kipper lost that series with a .923 sv%. Would an .896 sv% be enough to sink this roster in the first round? Scary thought.

They are not close to the opposite of that team though. The Flames in 06 were the best team in the league in goals against and bottom 3 in goals scored. This year while being second in goals for they are also 8th in goals against so still one of the better teams in keeping the puck out.

Lack of finish killer that team (why did Juice hit the crossbar in game 6 OT!). This current team could be undone by goaltending but it is not as obvious as that 06 group. Sitter went and got Tanguay that summer to bolster the offense and thanks to the lack of moves yesterday Treliving has far more flexibility and assets to address the net this summer if need be

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Agreed
I think it was Kylington/Dube + 1st
Given the team acquired another dman earlier in the day my guess is Kylington+1st.

To me that would fit Boomer's tweet as I think the inclusion of Kylington significantly ups the price being paid
And frankly I would have viewed that deal as being fair and I probably would have been happy with it - as I think Zucker would have been a good fit
But I also don't mind that Kylington and the 1st are still in BT's pocket.

I highly doubt that. That would be way too much for Zucker.

And Boomer's tweet was very ambiguous - I took it as meaning that there was more to the deal than just Zucker for Frolik and a !st

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by CanadaMatt

Are you sure you’re not mixing up rental price and long term signature?

The stumbling block may have been Valimaki as the price for a rental, you’re right.

However, I imagine if they could have signed Stone long term as part of the trade, then Valimaki and a 2nd would have been an acceptable price to pay...but they couldn’t afford long term at 9.5 because of the cap issues next year.

Except the stories coming out afterwards were specifically about the inclusion of Valimaki. If the sticking point were about the cost of Stone, they would have either mentioned Stone, or just said something generic like they couldn't make it work.

If the problem is about Stone's ask, you don't throw out another player's name as the reason. Not only does it not make any sense, but it brings undo attention to that player.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I highly doubt that. That would be way too much for Zucker.

And Boomer's tweet was very ambiguous - I took it as meaning that there was more to the deal than just Zucker for Frolik and a !st

I am starting to think this as well. Maybe it was something like Kylington+1st+2020 2nd for Zucker+1st.

[cannon7]

Zucker alone isn't worth that package.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by cannon7

Zucker alone isn't worth that package.

Which is why I wonder if Zucker plus an upgrade in first-round picks is.

[Flash Walken]

but if minnesota is blowing it up, why are they moving 1st rounders?

[868904]

I'm happy to keep the young assets instead of having Zucker.

I'm not sure he is what the Flames need. The Flames "DNA" under Peters is "speed and skill" and yes that is exactly what Zucker brings.

However, the Flames already have plenty of that in the line up with Gaudreau, Lindholm, Backlund, Czarnik, Ryan, and Mangiapane.

50% of the forward group can be classified as small, speedy and skilled. That has worked great in the regular season, but how will it work in the playoffs?

We know the game is different in the playoffs. You need speed and you need skill, but you also need size and toughness. That is a fact.

Flames need more size to go along with that skill. Flames need James Neal to be the Real Deal. That is the biggest need for this team.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Except the stories coming out afterwards were specifically about the inclusion of Valimaki. If the sticking point were about the cost of Stone, they would have either mentioned Stone, or just said something generic like they couldn't make it work.

If the problem is about Stone's ask, you don't throw out another player's name as the reason. Not only does it not make any sense, but it brings undo attention to that player.

Stones’s ask was part of the problem no question about it. If the Flames were sitting on a ton of cap space it makes including Valimaki much easier in the deal. All aspects of the trade which include the ask for the Flames and the complications in making an extension work are the reasons the deal went from close to non existent.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by 868904

IWe know the game is different in the playoffs. You need speed and you need skill, but you also need size and toughness. That is a fact.

An opinion, actually. A commonly held opinion, maybe, but not a fact.

[Buff]

Humor me here.

What if it was something like Kylington and 1st and maybe another roster player like Smith or Rittich for Zucker and Dubnyk?

But why would Minnesota trade Dubnyk? Paul Fenton has been doing some weird trades lately.

What if the big trade that fell apart on Sunday night was this one and not Stone?

[Samonadreau]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

An opinion, actually. A commonly held opinion, maybe, but not a fact.

The fact would be that the whistles get put away in the playoffs. That doesnt mean you need size and toughness butbit sure doesn't hurt as long as its not at the expense to speed and skill.

[SeanCharles]

I, for one, am glad we made it through the TDL and still have all of Andersson, Valimaki, Kylington and Dube.

All 4 should be part of the long-term plans.

If we want to upgrade in the offseason for another top 6 forward I think using picks and roster players who are no longer on their ELC's is the most logical.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I am starting to think this as well. Maybe it was something like Kylington+1st+2020 2nd for Zucker+1st.

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

but if minnesota is blowing it up, why are they moving 1st rounders?

Exactly.

The deal may well have been for more than Zucker, but it is highly unlikely that it would have included a 1st coming back to us.

We are all just guessing of course, but the suggestion of Dubnyk makes a lot more sense than a 1st.

But who knows

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Buff

Humor me here.

What if it was something like Kylington and 1st and maybe another roster player like Smith or Rittich for Zucker and Dubnyk?

But why would Minnesota trade Dubnyk? Paul Fenton has been doing some weird trades lately.

What if the big trade that fell apart on Sunday night was this one and not Stone?

Ultimately I hope the deal gets leaked because there has been a ton of speculation.

I saw on HF that Wild fans speculated Bennett or Jankowski are the only players that make sense. I personally think Treliving was sending futures he was willing to part with for a rental along with a contract he wanted to move to take on Zucker.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Samonadreau

The fact would be that the whistles get put away in the playoffs.

...That would fall somewhere between a hypothesis and a myth, also not a fact.

That doesnt mean you need size and toughness butbit sure doesn't hurt as long as its not at the expense to speed and skill.

I would agree. You can never have enough size and toughness, but that's different from needing it.

[Jore]

By my calculations using nhl.com stats, since 2016, there have been 25,895 penalties called in 6925 games for 3.73 penalties per game in the regular season, and 1492 penalties called in 342 games for 4.36 penalties per game in the playoffs. It's possible that playoff games involve more after the whistle melee penalties and fewer play-influenced penalties, but it doesn't seem to support what people say about whistles being put away for the playoffs

[flamesrule_kipper34]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

They are not close to the opposite of that team though. The Flames in 06 were the best team in the league in goals against and bottom 3 in goals scored. This year while being second in goals for they are also 8th in goals against so still one of the better teams in keeping the puck out.

Lack of finish killer that team (why did Juice hit the crossbar in game 6 OT!). This current team could be undone by goaltending but it is not as obvious as that 06 group. Sitter went and got Tanguay that summer to bolster the offense and thanks to the lack of moves yesterday Treliving has far more flexibility and assets to address the net this summer if need be

I still have nightmares thinking about the Red Wings series where Kipper went into all out God-mode and Moss had an empty net on Hasek in game 6 (I believe first OT) to force game 7...doink clanks it off the post and we lose that game and series in double OT.