I like Wills quite a bit as a pbp guy. As an analyst, not so much.
One thing I think was beneficial for Maher was that he had a foil - Doug Barkley, Mike Rogers. They weren't afraid to call out the flames/cast them in a negative light, which helped balance some potential for Maher to be an over-the-top homer. I'm not so sure Derek has that with Peter.
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For some reason though it was endearing with Maher whereas with Wills it is irritating.
Yeah this. Maher is just a different person: beautifully smooth delivery, long history with the club and he just comes across as knowledgeable. Wills just doesn't have any of these. When he talks I don't hear insincerity, but I wonder just how much he knows about the game. Or is he just a professional radio voice? You can predict his answer to any question.
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Look, the analytics guys know the limitations of what they are measuring. Not sure why you seem defensive of it. They want to improve but know there is a practical limitation in manual data gathering
I see with my eyes things that contribute to making goals happen. These things aren’t measured. That is known. Models don’t use it yet. Why not talk about it?
I won’t ask you not to keep going with whatever you’re doing.
Just if you want to draw conclusions, why not acknowledge the limitations of the available data?
I'm not defensive at all.
I'm just putting an objective measure ahead of one hockey fan's view of particular goals that seem to suggest you can ignore stats.
You won't get an argument that a certain chance is more dangerous or less dangerous than another, but unless you're willing to take on that project I gave you there isn't a replacement for a zone plus entry distinction stat for assessing GSAA and xSV%.
Even if you actually took on that project you'd still be one guy doing it that may have a bias going in by the looks of it.
Data as of February 10th. So it includes the San Jose game and the Vancouver game.
Since then, Rittich's only game is against Tampa Bay, in which the team didn't show up and he had no chance on almost all of the goals.
And yet, now there is a goalie debate? Seems manufactured to me.
Bingo, all due respect, your analysis is overly simplistic.
Deluxe, all due respect, your analysis is limited by the practicality of counting and analyzing individual events.
However, I can guarantee, that the Flames internal analysis is not similarly limited. They are working with Rittich every day, and are far more in touch with the state of his game (mentally and physically) than we are.
So ultimately as fans, we are now left with a narrative being pushed by the media that there is a goalie controversy. When in fact, there isn't.
David Rittich is the better of the two goalies. It comes down to how the team manages him and gets him to be at his peak for the playoffs.
If I had to make a broad guess, I'm thinking that the Flames are right now doing everything they can to make sure Rittich does not implode like he did last year down the stretch. By managing his games, and allowing him to get the finer points ironed out, he will be back to form in time for the playoffs.
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I firmly believe both Derek and Peter need to learn that less is more sometimes. when Peter was doing PbP, you only heard from him for 1 segment in the morning and afternoon, both were 15 minutes, and you hardly ever heard from the color guy, but know those 2 are on the radio constantly
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Agreed that he needs a better foil than Loubardias who as far as I know has "Loved the game" of every single flames player ever with the exception of Dougie Hamilton.
Loubo actually seems almost even keel these days when compared to Wills.
On their sign-off from the game on Monday night did anyone notice Wills take a veiled shot at pinder or did I imagine that?
And yet, now there is a goalie debate? Seems manufactured to me.
Bingo, all due respect, your analysis is overly simplistic.
Deluxe, all due respect, your analysis is limited by the practicality of counting and analyzing individual events.
However, I can guarantee, that the Flames internal analysis is not similarly limited. They are working with Rittich every day, and are far more in touch with the state of his game (mentally and physically) than we are.
So ultimately as fans, we are now left with a narrative being pushed by the media that there is a goalie controversy. When in fact, there isn't.
David Rittich is the better of the two goalies. It comes down to how the team manages him and gets him to be at his peak for the playoffs.
If I had to make a broad guess, I'm thinking that the Flames are right now doing everything they can to make sure Rittich does not implode like he did last year down the stretch. By managing his games, and allowing him to get the finer points ironed out, he will be back to form in time for the playoffs.
How can my analysis (honestly it's a stretch to call it even that) be simplistic when your reply is just three charts showing the whole season?
At least I had a before and after in my simple look!
I'm a Rittich fan, and I hope he finds it again, but even the charts you are showing now have taken a huge hit in the last two months. He was 2nd and 3rd forever in GSAA for example, now he's a negative in that category.
Smith makes me nervous as hell and I don't like the idea of chewing off my fingernails watching him in the playoffs.
But the two have trended towards each other in recent months, I honestly can't believe there is so much debate over something so simple to look up.
How can my analysis (honestly it's a stretch to call it even that) be simplistic when your reply is just three charts showing the whole season?
At least I had a before and after in my simple look!
I'm a Rittich fan, and I hope he finds it again, but even the charts you are showing now have taken a huge hit in the last two months. He was 2nd and 3rd forever in GSAA for example, now he's a negative in that category.
Smith makes me nervous as hell and I don't like the idea of chewing off my fingernails watching him in the playoffs.
But the two have trended towards each other in recent months, I honestly can't believe there is so much debate over something so simple to look up.
I've been pretty clear that I agree with general take that Rittich hasn't played as well the last few months.
I detest the current narrative in the media being pushed that Smith is "back" and that there is a goalie controversy. Smith is back from where? (worst goalie in the league) To what, exactly? (still below average). While Rittich has a 20-5-5 record.....
Statistics can be molded to form any narrative, depending upon the context chosen. There are no facts, just interpretations!
Maybe it really is just that we are a Canadian market, and are running out of stories to create controversy since we've been second overall in the league for the majority of the season.
I like how you put it. Smith also makes me nervous as hell. Like literally, every single shot from the point makes me hold my breath. Screened or not.
Rittich, less so. But more so recently.
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More or less I take issue with your assertion that being on the radio broadcast automatically means they have to be an absolutely unbearable to listen to homer like wills or they will get fired, as peter maher occupied the same role for the vast majority of the franchises existence and was nowhere near as unlistenable outside of actually calling games as Wills is. Maher actually provided insight and wasn't just running defense for when meanies who use stats and logic to bad mouth poor performers
I didn't mean they had to be unlistenable or a huge homer on the call. Peter Maher called a great game and took great pains to sound as excited for an opposition goal as a Flames goal. One of the reasons he was a hall of fame broadcaster. I meant that if you're looking for a fact-based take about an uncomfortable reality for the home team it sure as heck won't come from the play by play announcer. Especially in today's media landscape where ownership is concentrated in too few hands.
For the record, I actually like listening to Wills call a game. I just don't expect to ever hear a non-biased take out of him on matters of the Calgary Flames because of his position. Nor would I expect such from any other play by play guy about the team they cover.
Wills is a pom pom waving cheerleader of sorts. And Pinder is right that being rooted in that stance makes for boring radio because the takes become predictable and it never leads to any interesting debate, it's just pom pom waving. If he wants to garner that respect from the guys when it comes to analysis (and I think they respect him just fine for what he does - pbp) he may have to have to start taking some harsher slants and call a spade a spade now and then when it's warranted. He appears to feel about most of the guys the way Loubo did about Russell and that's why it borders on embarrassing when his views clash with someone that doesn't like to give credit so willingly.
These guys are multi millionaires that are compensated handsomely even in losses. You're not going to hurt their feelings at the end of the day.
Last edited by djsFlames; 02-20-2019 at 01:51 PM.
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If I had to make a broad guess, I'm thinking that the Flames are right now doing everything they can to make sure Rittich does not implode like he did last year down the stretch. By managing his games, and allowing him to get the finer points ironed out, he will be back to form in time for the playoffs.
I really believe the Flames "want" Smith to be their starter for the playoffs. They like his experience.
Now I agree that are also managing Rittich as best they can as they want him confident and sharp for the playoffs too.
I wouldn't call it a controversy, but if you ask yourself who would start game 1 if the playoffs started tomorrow, I believe today's answer is Smith.
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As opinionated as he can be, I think Pinder would be smart enough not to challenge a legend like Peter Maher the same way he does Derek Wills. Pinder and Wills were both calling AHL play-by-play at the same time, so I'm guessing he feels more comfortable challenging Wills' opinion. And while Maher certainly was no Flames basher, Wills certainly has a lot more of the blatant homer attitude. And for whatever reason, the repetitive cadence of Wills' talking/game call I find too much sometimes.
Last edited by sleepingmoose; 02-20-2019 at 01:58 PM.
Wills is a pom pom waving cheerleader of sorts. And Pinder is right that being rooted in that stance makes for boring radio because the takes become predictable and it never leads to any interesting debate, it's just pom pom waving. If he wants to garner that respect from the guys when it comes to analysis (and I think they respect him just fine for what he does - pbp) he may have to have to start taking some harsher slants and call a spade a spade now and then when it's warranted. He appears to feel about most of the guys the way Loubo did about Russell and that's why it borders on embarrassing when his views clash with someone that doesn't like to give credit so willingly.
These guys are multi millionaires that are compensated handsomely even in losses. You're not going to hurt their feelings at the end of the day.
All true ... but I'd point out that Maher was the same. He didn't have a negative thing to say about any players.
Wills is a pom pom waving cheerleader of sorts. And Pinder is right that being rooted in that stance makes for boring radio because the takes become predictable and it never leads to any interesting debate, it's just pom pom waving. If he wants to garner that respect from the guys when it comes to analysis (and I think they respect him just fine for what he does - pbp) he may have to have to start taking some harsher slants and call a spade a spade now and then when it's warranted. He appears to feel about most of the guys the way Loubo did about Russell and that's why it borders on embarrassing when his views clash with someone that doesn't like to give credit so willingly.
These guys are multi millionaires that are compensated handsomely even in losses. You're not going to hurt their feelings at the end of the day.
How much money you make has little effect on your feelings. I have no doubt it is hard to publicly criticize people when you have to interact with then every day. Lots of examples of athletes getting pissed with the media. ANd I'm sure often we just don't hear about it.
All true ... but I'd point out that Maher was the same. He didn't have a negative thing to say about any players.
True. And I think the difference was Maher just didn't react to the skeptics or take it personally. He gave his take left it at that, whether or not the hosts agreed.
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True. And I think the difference was Maher just didn't react to the skeptics or take it personally. He gave his take left it at that, whether or not the hosts agreed.
And I don't think people questioned or argued with Peter Maher to the same extent they're willing to quarrel with Wills.
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And I don't think people questioned or argued with Peter Maher to the same extent they're willing to quarrel with Wills.
Being a ginger probably doesn't help
I don't mind the analyst side of him (even if I mostly disagree)...my biggest issue with Wills still remains his play calling. The way he calls the general pace of the game has improved, but I still can't get used to the way he calls the goals. They are often late, and always dragged out in a way that makes me think of:
The fact that he always downplays opponents goals also bothers me. It’s not quite Kevin Quinn bad, but there’s no need for that in a market like this. Maher always made sure he always called the temperature of the game, not just how it related to the Flames.
It's not something that was going to be easy to replace, but Maher always seemed very natural in his role. I'm sure there was a lot of work behind it, but it came across as effortless. In comparison, Wills always comes across as a bit forced, and as a guy who is trying really hard to carve out a niche. It just doesn’t come across as being as authentic as it does for guys like Maher or Ball.
Agreed that he needs a better foil than Loubardias who as far as I know has "Loved the game" of every single flames player ever with the exception of Dougie Hamilton.
Loubo actually seems almost even keel these days when compared to Wills.
On their sign-off from the game on Monday night did anyone notice Wills take a veiled shot at pinder or did I imagine that?
Not sure if it was Monday's game, but yes - I definitely heard him talking to Lou and Pat and mentioning something along the lines of how great it was to be able to talk with them about Smith because they were more 'professional' or something (paraphrasing). Definitely a shot at Pinder.
I used to not mind Wills' call of the game but lately it seems he's taken his arguments with Pinder personally and he's let it impact his game call. He seems to have an agenda now to really go over the top in talking about Smith almost as if he's trying to get the listeners on his side while no one is there to oppose him. It's incredibly unprofessional and just listening to him on the the afternoons with his ridiculous takes has really made me start to dislike him as a PBP guy. Throw in Lou and Steinberg and the games are basically unlistenable. Of course, no one else calls the Flames games on the radio, so there's not much choice (if streaming the TV broadcast isn't an option, which it isn't always for me).
I will say tho, I've been a big hater of 960 since Boomer took over the morning show but I've found myself going out of my way to tune in at 2:07pm lately (they never start on time). Pinder is good at what he does and he's dragging all the other boat anchors along with him. I don't know if the the changes promised will ever come or if they were like my near years resolutions and only talked about in December, never to be actually carried out. If they do happen tho, I hope Pinder stays on the afternoons and actually gets some talent to work with.
