"Take that Calgary Puck!" — SN960 and Calgary sports media discussion

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

There was nothing technically wrong with what Wills said, save for his suggestion that Mike Smith has wrestled back the starting job with a couple decent performances. I thought that was jumping the gun, and attributed it to his overtly favourable view of Smith. But where Wills erred was in taking it personal. He was clearly rattled, and the moment he said “the difference between you and me...” I thought he had lost the debate.

I dont recall him saying that Smith had reclaimed the starter net....what he was saying is that based on save% (Pinders go to since November) Smith could be the better choice since his numbers have been better over the last 3 months.

Regardless....Pinder evokes the reactions he gets because he is a glib and self-regarding personality....at least on radio.

[northcrunk]

Pinder seems like the only guy on the station who would be in with the "Edmonton is no good" thread and for that I'm on #teampinder Even if he claims to like "craft" beer but I don't believe him based on what he drinks.

[stone hands]

its pretty easy to assume an "i am smarter than you" attitude when you have the exact same mind bogglingly stupid debate every single day at 4:08 with a water carrying homer who has staunchly defended mike smith in the face of goaltending that has flirted with league worst since around feb of last year

[flamestar16]

This reminds me of the time that Steinberg and Loubardias had a debate about Kris Russell. It got quite heated like the goalie argument yesterday. Steinberg was throwing stats out and Loubardias was responding with Russell is a 'great guy' and 'character individual'. Loubo had no strong points in the argument and basically tried to belittle Pat for having a fact based take.

[mikeecho]

Originally Posted by Northendzone

boomer seemed to be mocking him a bit after the clip was done.

It's schtick with Boomer. They came back to start the next segment and Boomer conceded that Pinder makes sense in his position.


The entire morning show circa Pinder was premised on Pinder being the nerdy outsider of the group, but Boomer has been on record in the past suggesting that Pinder is the high flyer that has the potential for a very high trajectory in the business.



IMHO, Sportsnet960 would be pretty pedestrian and boring if not for Pinder challenging the dialogue. The afternoon show has gotten better with his addition and the morning show has lagged with his departure.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Mike Smith stopped 31 of 32 shots at even strength vs Pittsburgh. How convenient of you to ignore that game. David Rittich stopped 18 of 22 in Tampa.

I don’t know if Smith would have fared much better vs the top team in the NHL, but I am certain that he was better in the Pittsburgh game than Rittich has played in his last two.


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I understand that you think that. Shot counts and goal counts do not provide context.

A one timer top corner and a shot into the chest have different likelihood of being stopped. Not controversial, I hope.

There is a reason Tampa has scored 5 plus in 22 of their last 41 games.

Smith let in 4 against Pittsburgh. They weren’t awful but I wouldn’t say they were all great. He gave a NHL level performance.

Malkin’s goal wasn’t horrible but wasn’t great. It was stoppable. Went through the goalie. That goal goes in some of the time.

Stamkos’s one timer wasn’t. When he places that shot where he intends to, it’s going in. Pretty much all the time. Now if he blasts it in to the goalie’s chest or glove, well, that happens too. But that’s not the shot he took.

And as far as strength, that’s a bit of a red herring at this level of statistical significance. The Flames defensive breakdowns against Tampa created numerous grade A scoring chances. Pittsburgh had nowhere near the chances.

It still comes down, for me, to what was actually scored and how, not how many other shots are stopped that are expected to be stopped. I basically don’t care about that easily stoppable 80-85 percent of all shots, which are a non issue until a goalie flubs them.

Stats without context and interpretation are just not sufficient to make a satisfactory case.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by northcrunk

Pinder seems like the only guy on the station who would be in with the "Edmonton is no good" thread and for that I'm on #teampinder Even if he claims to like "craft" beer but I don't believe him based on what he drinks.

Really?

I think Boomer or Warrener would be happy to be president of that club if it existed.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by mikeecho

It's schtick with Boomer. They came back to start the next segment and Boomer conceded that Pinder makes sense in his position.


The entire morning show circa Pinder was premised on Pinder being the nerdy outsider of the group, but Boomer has been on record in the past suggesting that Pinder is the high flyer that has the potential for a very high trajectory in the business.



IMHO, Sportsnet960 would be pretty pedestrian and boring if not for Pinder challenging the dialogue. The afternoon show has gotten better with his addition and the morning show has lagged with his departure.

No question. He could be a big star if he chooses to do so. His technical abilities in regards to the job are top notch.

I believe, however, he has already turned down what would have been a huge promotion but would have required him to move to Toronto. Pure speculation on my part.

I think he should be eyeing a Ron McLean type position in the future as he can not only talk about almost any subject with confidence, he can also carry it among his peers. Its a unique talent.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

I understand that you think that. Shot counts and goal counts do not provide context.

A one timer top corner and a shot into the chest have different likelihood of being stopped. Not controversial, I hope.

There is a reason Tampa has scored 5 plus in 22 of their last 41 games.

Smith let in 4 against Pittsburgh. They weren’t awful but I wouldn’t say they were all great. He gave a NHL level performance.

Malkin’s goal wasn’t horrible but wasn’t great. It was stoppable. Went through the goalie. That goal goes in some of the time.

Stamkos’s one timer wasn’t. When he places that shot where he intends to, it’s going in. Pretty much all the time. Now if he blasts it in to the goalie’s chest or glove, well, that happens too. But that’s not the shot he took.

And as far as strength, that’s a bit of a red herring at this level of statistical significance. The Flames defensive breakdowns against Tampa created numerous grade A scoring chances. Pittsburgh had nowhere near the chances.

It still comes down, for me, to what was actually scored and how, not how many other shots are stopped that are expected to be stopped. I basically don’t care about that easily stoppable 80-85 percent of all shots, which are a non issue until a goalie flubs them.

Stats without context and interpretation are just not sufficient to make a satisfactory case.

Your posts make me glad there are things like stats to actually measure goaltenders. Otherwise I'd have to check with you for every game story as to whether or not giving up six (Rittich above average against Tampa in a loss) in a loss, or giving up basically four powerplay goals against Pittsburgh in a win was an average NHL performance.

Who has time for that kind of analysis, especially with the fact that when it's done it's one person's opinion and nothing else, and said opinion may have a bias or two.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by flamestar16

This reminds me of the time that Steinberg and Loubardias had a debate about Kris Russell. It got quite heated like the goalie argument yesterday. Steinberg was throwing stats out and Loubardias was responding with Russell is a 'great guy' and 'character individual'. Loubo had no strong points in the argument and basically tried to belittle Pat for having a fact based take.

So Pat was actually arguing firmly for against a topic for once? I've rarely, if ever heard him not sit squarely on the fence if anything remotely controversial pops up during discussion.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

...Stats without context and interpretation are just not sufficient to make a satisfactory case.

I completely agree, but on the other hand interpretations of game events are also hopelessly subjective. Your own bias towards one goalie and against another is glaringly obvious with how strenuously you work to convince others about “shot quality” from one game to another. Yes, it matters, but with how quick you are to forgive every one of Rittich’s mistakes, and with how readily you overlook the quality of Smith’s competition it is abundantly clear that your own judgement on this matter is totally unbalanced.

Rittich did not play as well in Tampa as Smith did in Pittsburgh. The numbers bear that out. The results beat that out. You appear incapable of acknowledging that.


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[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by flamestar16

This reminds me of the time that Steinberg and Loubardias had a debate about Kris Russell. It got quite heated like the goalie argument yesterday. Steinberg was throwing stats out and Loubardias was responding with Russell is a 'great guy' and 'character individual'. Loubo had no strong points in the argument and basically tried to belittle Pat for having a fact based take.

It was kind of like that, except that this time around it was Wills who was making the statistical argument, Pinder was the one moving the goalposts, and as a result Wills was losing his mind.

[flamestar16]

In case anyone is interested, found what I was referencing.

https://www.sportsnet.ca/960/hockey-...-best-slotted/

[Yamer]

Originally Posted by flamestar16

This reminds me of the time that Steinberg and Loubardias had a debate about Kris Russell. It got quite heated like the goalie argument yesterday. Steinberg was throwing stats out and Loubardias was responding with Russell is a 'great guy' and 'character individual'. Loubo had no strong points in the argument and basically tried to belittle Pat for having a fact based take.

EDIT: 2 minutes too late.

For those that don't recall or never heard it, this is must listen radio:

https://www.sportsnet.ca/960/hockey-...-best-slotted/

Loubardias takes it to a personal level almost off the bat (those people: Pat) and is immediately dismissive of the opposing argument. I really don't blame Steinberg for poking back and challenging, but damn do I respect Loubardias' passion for the game.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Your posts make me glad there are things like stats to actually measure goaltenders. Otherwise I'd have to check with you for every game story as to whether or not giving up six (Rittich above average against Tampa in a loss) in a loss, or giving up basically four powerplay goals against Pittsburgh in a win was an average NHL performance.

Who has time for that kind of analysis, especially with the fact that when it's done it's one person's opinion and nothing else, and said opinion may have a bias or two.

Regardless of the objectivity or subjectivity of goaltender evaluation...

single game sv% is garbage.

[Cowboy89]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

There was nothing technically wrong with what Wills said, save for his suggestion that Mike Smith has wrestled back the starting job with a couple decent performances. I thought that was jumping the gun, and attributed it to his overtly favorable view of Smith. But where Wills erred was in taking it personal. He was clearly rattled, and the moment he said “the difference between you and me...” I thought he had lost the debate.




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Wills can't be looked upon for an objective fact-based opinion on the Flames on any manor that is not positive. His role as play-by-play broadcaster of the Flames makes it inherently prerequisite to have an optimistic view (or at least an outwardly optimistic view in public) of everything Calgary Flames. He has to travel with the team and at times even represent the Flames brand in public at various venues. That's part of the deal with Fan960 being a rights holder and Wills being a recent add as voice of the Flames. The second he's in there agreeing with Pinder or acknowledging a non-rose colored glasses reality he's probably immediately fired upon request of the Flames. There's simply only 30 other equivalent jobs out there in the NHL and he would have extreme difficulty getting another one.

We always laugh at Kevin Quinn and his call of Oilers games in March every year with the team way out of it, putting on the brave face, amplifying his voice on every Oiler shot on goal as if it's a quality scoring chance. Quite honestly, if the Flames were ever that bad for that long, you'd still see their on-air personalities carry water for the team and from a career / personal level I can't blame them. Too few jobs and far too much competition for people vying for them (Secondary to dreaming of actually being an athlete, every sports fan has probably dreamed of being a sportscaster).

On the other hand in today's 'hot take' sports coverage universe, Pinder's career arc is actually positively correlated to the amount of outrage generated, manufactured or fact-based.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Regardless of the objectivity or subjectivity of goaltender evaluation...

single game sv% is garbage.

It's useful for helping to tell the story about a single game.

On Dec 13 Andrei Vasilevski recorded a 0.980 SP in a win against the Maple Leafs. Is that number "garbage"?

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Your posts make me glad there are things like stats to actually measure goaltenders. Otherwise I'd have to check with you for every game story as to whether or not giving up six (Rittich above average against Tampa in a loss) in a loss, or giving up basically four powerplay goals against Pittsburgh in a win was an average NHL performance.

Who has time for that kind of analysis, especially with the fact that when it's done it's one person's opinion and nothing else, and said opinion may have a bias or two.

A performance can be statistically below average, while comprised of input data that doesn’t reflect the average.

I would quite specifically point to the Tampa game as a crystal clear demonstration of that.

I don’t care what goalie was in. For the love of god, please stop with the bias claims.

I sure as heck don’t want you to check with me, that would be silly and I enjoy reading your opinion as is. But on the days where the numbers don’t match the eye test, time and inclination permitting, I may decide to express my view.

Even the analytics guys acknowledge sv% is not good enough, shot quality exists, and that small samples of data can’t always be relied on as representative

[stone hands]

Originally Posted by Cowboy89

Wills can't be looked upon for an objective fact-based opinion on the Flames on any manor that is not positive. His role as play-by-play broadcaster of the Flames makes it inherently prerequisite to have an optimistic view (or at least an outwardly optimistic view in public) of everything Calgary Flames. He has to travel with the team and at times even represent the Flames brand in public at various venues. That's part of the deal with Fan960 being a rights holder and Wills being a recent add as voice of the Flames. The second he's in there agreeing with Pinder or acknowledging a non-rose colored glasses reality he's probably immediately fired upon request of the Flames. There's simply only 30 other equivalent jobs out there in the NHL and he would have extreme difficulty getting another one.

We always laugh at Kevin Quinn and his call of Oilers games in March every year with the team way out of it, putting on the brave face, amplifying his voice on every Oiler shot on goal as if it's a quality scoring chance. Quite honestly, if the Flames were ever that bad for that long, you'd still see their on-air personalities carry water for the team and from a career / personal level I can't blame them. Too few jobs and far too much competition for people vying for them (Secondary to dreaming of actually being an athlete, every sports fan has probably dreamed of being a sportscaster).

On the other hand in today's 'hot take' sports coverage universe, Pinder's career arc is actually positively correlated to the amount of outrage generated, manufactured or fact-based.

you say this like peter maher wasnt the radio voice for the flames for over 30 years

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

A performance can be statistically below average, while comprised of input data that doesn’t reflect the average.

I would quite specifically point to the Tampa game as a crystal clear demonstration of that.

I don’t care what goalie was in. For the love of god, please stop with the bias claims.

I sure as heck don’t want you to check with me, that would be silly and I enjoy reading your opinion as is. But on the days where the numbers don’t match the eye test, time and inclination permitting, I may decide to express my view.

Even the analytics guys acknowledge sv% is not good enough, shot quality exists, and that small samples of data can’t always be relied on as representative

You are the goaltending authority. We get that. Your rec league experience is finally paying off