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Old 02-06-2019, 09:56 AM   #3721
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Watching as a female, what sort of escapism would rape provide?
Escapism isn't the sense that I want to actually live and exist in this world. I like horror movies too but that doesn't mean I want somebody to drop me off at the Blair Witch forest. Similarly, shooting up random civilians in Grand Theft Auto doesn't mean I want to do it in real life.

It helps creates an atmosphere for the story to play itself out or to engage the audience further.

It's not real. Bad things, terrible things can happen in this make believe world and nobody will be hurt by it.
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Old 02-06-2019, 03:56 PM   #3722
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Originally Posted by Ashasx View Post
Escapism isn't the sense that I want to actually live and exist in this world. I like horror movies too but that doesn't mean I want somebody to drop me off at the Blair Witch forest. Similarly, shooting up random civilians in Grand Theft Auto doesn't mean I want to do it in real life.

It helps creates an atmosphere for the story to play itself out or to engage the audience further.

It's not real. Bad things, terrible things can happen in this make believe world and nobody will be hurt by it.
A million times this. Escapism is not the same as a fantasy (the dream kind, not the genre of literature).

And not to point fingers at firefly because it's only tangently related but I'd like to go on record that all of the GoT "controversies" have been stupid and overblown.

Sexposition is a moronic term and it is sad that it ever caught on. It was used to describe a single scene (the one where LF delivers a monologue as the prostitutes pleasure each other) and never meant to describe nudity on the show in general. Furthermore, the show has, on numerous occasions, used the exact same type of comparison between a characters words and the action on screen. This one just happened to feature sex so a bunch of prudes got mad.

All of the complaints about the amount of nudity, violence, violence against women, Sansa's rape, Sansa's revenge etc have no merit and it sucks that the show had to deal with those kinds of idiotic controversies. To make it worse, the shows creators, actors, writers and GRRM himself have all had to make comments about how they regret those themes and the scenes that were offensive for some people.
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Old 02-06-2019, 04:34 PM   #3723
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Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger View Post

All of the complaints about the amount of nudity, violence, violence against women, Sansa's rape, Sansa's revenge etc have no merit and it sucks that the show had to deal with those kinds of idiotic controversies. To make it worse, the shows creators, actors, writers and GRRM himself have all had to make comments about how they regret those themes and the scenes that were offensive for some people.
Agree with this 100% but your point takes me back to my original question. If GoT was being filmed in 2019 would those scenes even get written in today's day and age?

Last edited by Manhattanboy; 02-06-2019 at 04:36 PM.
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Old 02-06-2019, 05:19 PM   #3724
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So HBO is running the entire series now in advance of the new season and the first two episodes of Season 1 aired last night (and of course I watched again..).

Got me thinking. GOT premiered 8 years ago in April, 2011 well before the MeToo movement began. Would several GOT scenes get written and filmed if the series started today? Even in the first episode there was a brutal sexual assault of a lead character.

I wonder if movies and television, even cable, have been irreversibly changed in the current age of MeToo.
Those scenes were controversial in 2011 on the geek sites where GoT was talked about before it broke big. Lots of people complained and debated about the marriage scene with Daenerys in particular.

By 2014 there were articles like this calling out the exploitative use of rape in the show compared with the source material.

The show runners just carried on. And the rape scenes have continued right through the series in the face of ongoing criticism. GoT is just too popular (especially among young women) for this sort of criticism to get much traction. So I don't think anything changes if it premiered today.
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Old 02-06-2019, 06:03 PM   #3725
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There's a warning at the beginning of each episode about its content. Viewer discretion is advised.

If that sort of stuff gets to you, then don't watch it.

Pretty simple, really.
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Old 02-06-2019, 06:14 PM   #3726
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difficult content is fine as long as it's set up and justified, but when they're actually adding rapes to the TV show that never happened in the source material, it's worth doing the analysis. for example, none of Dany's, Cersei's or Sansa's TV rapes were in the books. I think the Dany one was justifiable as part of her arc to power, but the other two were clunky as hell in execution.

it's not as big a problem as the accelerating compression of the show's plot and themes into standard Lord of the Rings fare, but it's fair game to challenge from a writing perspective.
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Old 02-06-2019, 06:51 PM   #3727
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Whether something was in the source material is irrelevant. They’ve changed a million things from the books.

All that matters is that the changes make sense and whether the scenes were offensive or out of character and completely unnecessary/gratuitous. Dany having sex on her wedding night and it not being totally consensual makes a lot more sense than the books where she liked it (or whatever people claim). She was a 14 year old girl sold to a warlord who showed zero compassion towards her. She was raped. The book treating it like it was some romantic moment between strangers is way more offensive.

Jaime and Cersei having sex with Joffrey’s still warm body sitting right there was weird and the execution of the scene wasn’t the best but again, within the context, it does make sense. Jaime and Cersei always had that sexual connection. The fact they’d have sex in front of their dead child just goes to show they both have no shame. It was the power dynamic at play. It was better in the book but frankly if they’d mirrored the book people would have just complained that it’s wrong to show a woman giving in to an attempted rape and then made to like it (the Han/Leia problem). I think it’s more realistic that she didn’t suddenly to start enjoying being raped mid coitus. Again, show version was less offensive than the book imo.

As for Sansa and the Bolton Bastard, that never happened in the books at all but we know Ramsay did rape and torture women. What we saw with Sansa was mild compared to other #### he did (on the show and in the books). Did it help her character arc? Could they have just hinted at the abuses she suffered? Sure but then her choosing to watch Ramsay get ripped to shreds wouldn’t have had the same effect. Could they have been more subtle about Sansa losing her innocence? Yeah for sure but doing it this way really drove the point home. She’s not innocent, the world isn’t remotely the wonderful place she thought it would be, not all men are honourable like her father etc. And the scene itself wasn’t particularly graphic. I’d argue Joffrey with the prostitutes and the crossbow and the big wooden club was far more disturbing. No one gave a #### those two women got mutilated.

It mostly comes down to two things. Lame outrage culture with people trying to find ways to be offended over a goddamn tv show. And I think a lot of the complaints originated from book lovers who wanted any reason to trash the show. Using rape as a reason to be offended is basically indefensible. No ones gonna say they liked the rape scenes. Keep in mind a lot of hardcore book lovers HATE Dan and Dave for ruining their beloved books.

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Old 02-06-2019, 09:31 PM   #3728
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There were also scenes from the books (probably more) that weren't included in the series. Tyrion forces himself on Sansa on their wedding night, for example, but nothing happens on the show.
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Old 02-07-2019, 05:18 AM   #3729
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Geez. It's getting to the point where a fake conquering army can't fake rape and fake pillage any more.

Don't like it? Don't ####ing watch it.

Stupid PC bull####.
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Old 02-07-2019, 07:44 AM   #3730
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Watching as a female, what sort of escapism would rape provide?
I haven't the foggiest, because of course, I'm not a woman. Perhaps you could elucidate why females might find it entertaining?

Outlander is a show that female audiences eat up with a spoon, and there is plenty of gay rape and sexualized torture in that show. Why is 50 Shades of Gray so popular? Is Christian Gray a character worth fawning over?

I personally find those shows/books detestable and yet my wife enjoys the hell out of them. I've asked her to explain the contradictory position socially compared to her entertainment choices and she can't vocalize the reason. If you figure it out, please let me know because I am befuddled.
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Old 02-07-2019, 08:29 AM   #3731
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Watching as a female, what sort of escapism would rape provide?
For me, watching as a female, it provides the same level of escapism as any other ####ty thing a character goes through as part of their development. A character getting his penis cut off as a form of humiliation and torture is arguably more disturbing than a rape, but people aren't clutching their pearls over that.
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Old 02-07-2019, 08:45 AM   #3732
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There were also scenes from the books (probably more) that weren't included in the series. Tyrion forces himself on Sansa on their wedding night, for example, but nothing happens on the show.
that scene plays out essentially the same in both versions. on the show, Sansa starts to undress and then Tyrion changes his mind. in the book, they both get undressed and he puts his hand on her before saying the exact same thing (he won't do it until he's invited). the marriage is never consummated.

I typed this all out during season 5 when it happened, but I guess I'll do it again just for fun. sure, there was lots of hand-wringing over just the idea of Sansa's rape, regardless of context. that wasn't me; I was pissed off at a botched character arc. at the end of season 4, Sansa manipulated the lords of the Vale into acquitting Littlefinger, and then put on a seductive dress. that was the beginning of her transition from naive maiden to political player, or at least that's what the showrunners wanted us to believe.

next season, she gets dumped off at Winterfell and then completely regresses into helpless, clueless Sansa, just waiting around for her wedding night rape to happen. oh I guess she thew a snarky comment or two at Ramsay during dinnertime or something...except that's the exact opposite of how Littlefinger plays the game. he spends all his time buttering up allies and enemies alike, so that they let their guard down and allow him to scheme. what did he say to Sansa before he left her with the Boltons..."you have learned from the best"? guess that whole deception of the Vale was just a lucky one-off.

in my opinion it would have played so much better if she tried her new Littlefinger powers to gain some small win, got overconfident and went for a riskier play, then got caught and ended up as Ramsay's toy. same result, but a path that makes way more sense in the context of where they were taking her. the show spent years teaching us about the consequences of good and bad decisions, and Sansa was never exempt from this, but it was just so lame for her to essentially make no decisions at all. imagine if Arya bagged her first sword kill, and then at the very next oppponent threw Needle into a river and cowered in some bushes.

anyhow yes I get that they like to shock the audience and get people talking. but you can do that and still have a satisfying narrative that matches up with how you've built your characters. I think they start forgetting about that in season 5, and it just continues to get worse from there.
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Old 02-07-2019, 09:34 AM   #3733
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Watching as a female, what sort of escapism would rape provide?
I wouldn't know but that would be a good question for the masses of females that were into 50 Shades of Grey.
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Old 02-07-2019, 09:36 AM   #3734
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50 Shades of Gray and Sansa being repeatedly raped and brutalized over a season.

I mean, is there even a difference?? Come on ladies.
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Old 02-07-2019, 09:47 AM   #3735
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50 Shades of Gray and Sansa being repeatedly raped and brutalized over a season.

I mean, is there even a difference?? Come on ladies.
I don't think the question revolved around Sansa and was just general in regards to escapism and rape. Are you trying to say the degree or rape matters?

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Old 02-07-2019, 09:48 AM   #3736
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Well it is because he is a handsome incredibly successful billionaire as opposed to some creep. People can get caught up in that or just realise it is all about the fantasy.
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Old 02-07-2019, 11:18 AM   #3737
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Escapism isn't the sense that I want to actually live and exist in this world. I like horror movies too but that doesn't mean I want somebody to drop me off at the Blair Witch forest. Similarly, shooting up random civilians in Grand Theft Auto doesn't mean I want to do it in real life.

It helps creates an atmosphere for the story to play itself out or to engage the audience further.

It's not real. Bad things, terrible things can happen in this make believe world and nobody will be hurt by it.

Well, that can be said for anything, no? Any TV show is not real and nobody will be hurt. All TV is, is escapism.



The problem is that some people have a hard time differentiating between real and fantasy and that these same bad, terrible things also happen in real life.



FTR, I love GoT and don't care about the rape scenes. I didn't like 50 Shades because I thought it was poorly written and executed and not nearly as sexy as what I was led to believe.
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Old 02-07-2019, 12:25 PM   #3738
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lol, rape stories are in the bible, guys. This is a common literary theme.

I remember in English 205 or whatever first year English is called in university and one of the first lectures was on "male rape fantasy" in literature. I'm 19 sitting there thinking, I'm supposed to have a rape fantasty? I actually still find the notion that it's a universal fantasy slightly offensive; however, you'd have to be ignorant of literature to not realize rape is a common theme. If you're going to start getting prudish about rape in GoT, don't start going back through other literature, including the book that every pearl clutcher keeps on their bedside table.
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Old 02-07-2019, 01:15 PM   #3739
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Well, that can be said for anything, no? Any TV show is not real and nobody will be hurt. All TV is, is escapism.



The problem is that some people have a hard time differentiating between real and fantasy and that these same bad, terrible things also happen in real life.



FTR, I love GoT and don't care about the rape scenes. I didn't like 50 Shades because I thought it was poorly written and executed and not nearly as sexy as what I was led to believe.
If you're having difficulty finding the divide between reality and a television program with dragons, icey zombies, and a setting where television isn't even a known concept then your most concerning problem may not be the television program.
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Old 02-07-2019, 04:23 PM   #3740
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Agree with this 100% but your point takes me back to my original question. If GoT was being filmed in 2019 would those scenes even get written in today's day and age?
Probably not.
But there's scenes in King of Queens and Fresh Price reruns that I watch and say to myself "they couldn't say that today"; particularly gay jokes.
That line moves all the time.

The only major difference with Metoo, is that for some (small vocal minority) they want to move that line back on historical items as well and can't accept things for this context of that time in history (ie, Baby It's Cold Outside).
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