McMahon/Foothills redevelopment proposal

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Frequitude

No, sorry but I completely disagree. People talk about this like its -10 to -20 every single game. The vast majority of games are held in weather you want to be outdoors for. June, July, August and September represent 7-8 of the 9-10 home games...80%). Round down to 70% to account for major rain.

Indoor football would kill attendance in the long run. This is not the NFL where the spectacle and production value are the main draws. A big part of the CFL experience is sitting outdoors as the seasons progress from spring to winter.

We spend enough time indoors in this climate. Once the initial new stadium buzz has worn off, nobody is going to go to go pay a boat load of money to sit indoors in June, July, August and September. They're going to do something else outside and watch the game indoors, in their house, for free.


CSEC wants an indoor stadium to be able to host a bunch of other non-football events. It has little to nothing to do with Stamps fans or attendance. CSEC threw the majority of long term loyal season ticket holders under the bus with their CalgaryNEXT plan.

As for NFL, again, the CFL is not the NFL where production value makes it worthwhile and even desirable to be indoors.

I don't think you understand that the Stampeders loyal season ticket holders are an aging group that can't be counted on long term. You don't build another outdoor facility to cater to a fan base that's not going to around in a another decade. They are really trying hard to rope in younger fans and have struggled badly to get them to come outside in the cold to watch a Stampeders game. The Vancouver Whitecaps also play in BC place and have solid attendance and their fan base is primarily younger. It's hard enough to get Millienials out of their houses as-is but the prospects of sitting in the cold are a non-starter for a lot of them and cold is anything under 10 degrees when you are sitting for hours. Even Regina attendance suffers in the fall (had their worst attendance of the season by far in the first playoff game in their new stadium) and it's the only thing going on in that province.

[Lubicon]

Originally Posted by puffnstuff

You forgot to include the AJHL Mustangs who are also based out of FDB.

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

For what the Mustangs draw, they could play just about anywhere. Even the crappy for spectator rinks in Airdrie or Cochrane.

Puffnstuff, thanks for that, I totally forgot about the Mustangs.

Resolute 14, sure they could play at many other rinks. The point is they would then be taking ice availability from other users.

[Ace]

I could certainly enjoy an outdoor game with perfect conditions, but I would absolutely go to more games if it were indoors. I would even consider seasons seats. Now I’m beyond the days of going to a game with some buddies and hanging out. I’ve got young kids, and trying to go to an outdoor game with them is a PIA.

This past year I went to two games, one with my 7 year old son. It was about 15 degrees out and an evening game, so far from minus 20 but I still had to over dress him, and brought a blanket. 2nd game brought my son and my two nephews, nice sunny afternoon game, but not overly warm. So now we’re hauling in sweaters in case they get cold, and lathering them all up with sunscreen. Just annoying as heck to try and just check out a game. Both times we were using tickets given to us, so we go through the motions and enjoy a free day out. There’s no way I’d actually pay to have the hassle, we’ll just do something else.

I would assume many parents can relate, and a pretty big indicator to me why the exposure to the next generation will diminish...

[trumpethead]

Originally Posted by Joborule

I disagree. And by comparison, people that I know that are season ticket holders, would get rid of theirs as the outdoor experience is a big draw. How many of those that are against going to Stamps games because it isn't indoors during July-September?

Taking incentive away from attending summer months games, has more risk involved, than to encourage attendance in October/November. And honestly, attendance doesn't seem to be effected all that much even if it's cool weather outside. Fans will still come if the game is significant enough, and the weather isn't too extreme. The probability of times where weather is uncomfortable enough that having an enclosed venue is necessary for good turnout likely very low.

The Calgary Stampeders have played exactly 4 home games in the month of November over the past 3 seasons. 3 of the 4 were Western Final playoff games. High temps for those 3 games were +5c on Nov 20/16 (we won), +7c on Nov 19/17 (we won), +4c on Nov 18/18 (we won). Average attendance was right around 30k for each game. Anybody suggesting that they didn't go to one or all of these games due to weather is simply not a fan. Period.

[tvp2003]

Originally Posted by trumpethead

The Calgary Stampeders have played exactly 4 home games in the month of November over the past 3 seasons. 3 of the 4 were Western Final playoff games. High temps for those 3 games were +5c on Nov 20/16 (we won), +7c on Nov 19/17 (we won), +4c on Nov 18/18 (we won). Average attendance was right around 30k for each game. Anybody suggesting that they didn't go to one or all of these games due to weather is simply not a fan. Period.

Agreed 100%.

That said, I didn’t go to the West Final this year, but part of that was superstition (didn’t go in 2014 and we won the GC; went in 2016 and 2017 and lost). Needless to say, if we host the West Final in 2019 I’ll probably have to miss it

[Erick Estrada]

Stampeders didn't play a lot of home games in the fall last season (probably by request) which is a good thing as their worst numbers by far come this time of year;

Friday Sept. 22 TOR @ Cal, Attendance: 24,126
Sat Oct. 13, BC @ Cal, Attendance: 23,563
Sat Oct. 30, Sask @ Cal, Attendance: 30,868

I can say being at one of those games that those attendance numbers were generous as I don't think there was even 20k people in the stadium for either game. I put the Sask game on there to be fair but we all know that those games are massively inflated by Rider fans. I'm not an indoor facility lover by any means but I'm a big fan and care about the long term viability of the team. Those attendance numbers for the top team in the CFL and eventual Grey Cup winner are very, very concerning and there's a bigger picture here than catering to the older generation fans that like the outdoor experience.

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by trumpethead

Anybody suggesting that they didn't go to one or all of these games due to weather is simply not a fan. Period.

That's quite the statement. First of all, I don't think the Stamps care if people are fans, just paying customers. Second, some of us are football fans but prefer not to sit outside in the cold. I cancelled my season tickets for the Stamps about 10 years ago, and one of the top 3 reasons was the cold weather games. Yes, I could have tried moving to the sunny side of the stadium, but having been there during hot July games was also not pleasant.

If the Stamps were to build an indoor stadium, I may certainly look at season tickets again. As it stands now, I will continue to go to a couple of games per year.

[Zarley]

I certainly agree that there's nothing better than an outdoor football game on a sunny afternoon, but I've come around to the idea of an indoor stadium. Within my extended family we used to have 3 pairs of season tickets and now we're down to 0. As people have gotten older and softer they've started to prefer watching the games on TV. I think the Stamps would gain more patrons by moving indoors than they would lose.

Obviously a retractable roof would be the best option. Stadium technology has advanced a ton in the past few years with the advances made in ETFE, which has enabled lighter and cheaper retractable roofs, as well as huge transparent spans that can help provide more of an "outdoor" atmosphere.

Forsyth Barr Stadium is a nice precedent for a smaller scale stadium:


US Bank Stadium is obviously way larger than we would need, but it does a nice job of integrating an outdoor feel:

[Joborule]

If there was going to be a brand new stadium built that's combined with being a fieldhouse, then a key priority of the aesthetics has to be that the building features a great amount of outside synergy, along with a retractable roof that makes the building have resemblance of being an outdoor stadium.

This way it can somewhat embrace the positive attributes of the summer season, be an architectural jewel, and eliminate the need to build an outdoor track right outside the venue; giving extra space to make use of.

Economically, I don't know if that would be viable, compared to just renovating McMahon, and building the fieldhouse separate.

[trumpethead]

Originally Posted by Zarley

I certainly agree that there's nothing better than an outdoor football game on a sunny afternoon, but I've come around to the idea of an indoor stadium. Within my extended family we used to have 3 pairs of season tickets and now we're down to 0. As people have gotten older and softer they've started to prefer watching the games on TV. I think the Stamps would gain more patrons by moving indoors than they would lose.

Obviously a retractable roof would be the best option. Stadium technology has advanced a ton in the past few years with the advances made in ETFE, which has enabled lighter and cheaper retractable roofs, as well as huge transparent spans that can help provide more of an "outdoor" atmosphere.

That Forsyth Barr Stadium in NZ is actually quite amazing. Natural grass turf, nice 'cozy' atmosphere (31k seats for football) and built for approx. $200M CAD (9 years ago). Not sure how viable a 'glass house' stadium would be in our climate but that design would tick a lot of boxes for both the fieldhouse proposal and a new home for the Stamps.

[Lubicon]

I've never been a fan of incorporating a field house and a football facility into one one design, it will make for a terrible experience IMHO. The running track is going to set the stands so far back from the field it really takes away from the atmosphere. Look at Commonwealth Stadium in Edmonton. It's a great facility otherwise but the big drawback is the seats are set way back form the field. That's about the only thing McMahon has going for it but it is significant.

I also don't like the dome idea. Build a facility like Regina or Winnipeg, the size is ideal and properly designed with bowl type seating and oriented properly we should be able to minimize a lot of the environmental factors that otherwise make outdoors games miserable (wind, precipitation to some extent etc.).

Not sure if a reno is feasible which would allow the Stamps to continue playing while work is happening. At least they could rebuild in the same location if that were the case. Start in the end zones - build the end bowl seating where the Red and White club and locker rooms are first. Once finished you could put many of the season ticket holders there temporarily while they redid each side of the field seperately. Essentially renovate in three stages.


A separate field house - sure, the city needs one. And a new (or renovated) stadium - we need one too. But don't try and combine them.

[Ace]

Originally Posted by Lubicon

I've never been a fan of incorporating a field house and a football facility into one one design, it will make for a terrible experience IMHO. The running track is going to set the stands so far back from the field it really takes away from the atmosphere. Look at Commonwealth Stadium in Edmonton. It's a great facility otherwise but the big drawback is the seats are set way back form the field.

I would fully expect this to be solved by design. The original Calgary NEXT plan had retractable seats that would pull out over the running track during football.

[powderjunkie]

I've been on this for a long time, but I really wish the replacement for McMahon was the Stampede Grandstand + a new grandstand. Current grandstand is far from perfect, but the concourse and overall experience would still be better than current McMahon (and the premium seating venues are awesome).

Obviously a number of challenges:

- could be done integrating the horse track, but better yet is the impetus/excuse for Stampede to move away from the Chucks altogether (split the rodeo into two sessions with more stage/other entertainment sprinkled throughout event...currently rodeo is way too long and too slow)

- Grandstand Show stage - no more need to haul the stage in with a tractor, but going to need some creativity in how the show is designed (ie. 360 degree, more showband, less Young Canadians ...maybe move Stampede concert series)

- alternatively, move the rodeo into the new arena, and use the football stadium for Stampede Time concerts...maybe ~5 nights are free/cheap Coke Stage shows, the other 5 are 'Garth Brooks' level ticketed shows. Gate admission actually isn't as massive a revenue generator as one might think (IIRC ~60% of reported attendance is actually paid gate admission) - moving to an open admission system and instead charging admission charges for things like Coke Stage, Nashville North, and perhaps a few other events wouldn't necessarily hurt Stampede's bottom line (increased attendance would also mean more revenue from selling space to vendors).

- practice field - maybe you can make it indoors under the new grandstand bleachers, but better yet, I'd make it part of the youth campus due east of the new arena (even if it can't quite be full scale). Therefore essentially one site for training/sports med facilities as part of new areana/practice rink).


Then build a versatile fieldhouse facility near old McMahon site; a total redevelopment of the area along the lines of what's proposed (but less sucky) would have a lot more potential with a smaller footprint than McMahon and less parking.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

There's little doubt in my mind an indoor stadium would result in higher attendance especially in the fall and playoffs where they usually don't sell out because people don't want to sit in the cold when they can watch at home in HD. The fact the Stampeders want an indoor facility tells you all you need to know about the attendance studies they have done as opposed to your opinion. Don't confuse football with baseball as indoor facilities in the NFL has never been a deterrent for fans.

Lions attendance has absolutely nothing to do with attendance in Calgary. Nobody is going to Canucks or Lions games because BC is a bandwagon sports city and football is not nearly as important to them as it is in the prairies as Calgary, Edmonton, Regina, and Winnipeg are the core fan bases of the CFL. It's also a way to guarantee more Grey Cups in Calgary which brings in more revenue to the team.

I am reluctant to compare the CFL to NFL or US college football for any reason. Not talking about quality but the extent to which it is part of US culture. In some ways baseball is a better analogy as attendance at games is greatly impacted by weather, promotions, stadium experience etc.

I would be very hesitant to build an indoor football stadium for a CFL team. If weather affects attendance it’s really time to look at moving the season up.

[Thunderball]

Fully enclosed stadium might be a bit much, but partial coverage for the fans makes a huge difference. Reduce how much rain, direct sunlight, and wind the fans get and it’s a far better experience than being exposed outside or spending a nice July night in an enclosed building.

This plan looks like total junk, and only creates more issues.

[Lubicon]

So CBC radio was reporting this morning that the new Rec Centre opening this spring on Tsuu Tina lands will include a 5000 seat fieldhouse. I understood there were arena's but was not aware of the fieldhouse nor the size. Of course they could be wrong (would not be the first time the media have it wrong on something) and it's tough to find any concrete info on the web but if true then this might change the dynamics regarding the need for a fieldhouse in Calgary.

[Muta]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

I've been on this for a long time, but I really wish the replacement for McMahon was the Stampede Grandstand + a new grandstand. Current grandstand is far from perfect, but the concourse and overall experience would still be better than current McMahon (and the premium seating venues are awesome).

Just an interesting tidbit here, there was a feasibility study done a couple years ago to cover the Stampede grandstand to the infield and convert it into an indoor building, with the outdoor racing track running through it. Idea was that you could have more events there year round. While it was structurally feasible, the cost was in the hundreds of millions of dollars and not necessarily high on the Stampede's wish list going forward.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by Zarley

I certainly agree that there's nothing better than an outdoor football game on a sunny afternoon, but I've come around to the idea of an indoor stadium. Within my extended family we used to have 3 pairs of season tickets and now we're down to 0. As people have gotten older and softer they've started to prefer watching the games on TV. I think the Stamps would gain more patrons by moving indoors than they would lose.

Obviously a retractable roof would be the best option. Stadium technology has advanced a ton in the past few years with the advances made in ETFE, which has enabled lighter and cheaper retractable roofs, as well as huge transparent spans that can help provide more of an "outdoor" atmosphere.

Forsyth Barr Stadium is a nice precedent for a smaller scale stadium:

Spoiler!

Wow, I can't get over how perfect that stadium would be for Calgary. I read on it's wikipedia page that rain collected from the roof is collected and waters the real grass pitch. It would be awesome if the new McMahon had a grass field. I think it instantly becomes the premier soccer facility in the nation.


All that glass makes it feel like outdoors, but it can protect from wind and cold. Really cool. Apparently the big span over one of the grandstands can be opened too. Only $200 million.

[4X4]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Wow, I can't get over how perfect that stadium would be for Calgary. I read on it's wikipedia page that rain collected from the roof is collected and waters the real grass pitch. It would be awesome if the new McMahon had a grass field. I think it instantly becomes the premier soccer facility in the nation.


All that glass makes it feel like outdoors, but it can protect from wind and cold. Really cool. Apparently the big span over one of the grandstands can be opened too. Only $200 million.

The roof doesn't look like it could hold the amount of snow we got last winter.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by 4X4

The roof doesn't look like it could hold the amount of snow we got last winter.

Use heavier guage steel. Voila.