[News] Jan 3 UPD: Frolik's agent complains about his ice time

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by dammage79

Walsh does though. It's his go to tactic. I do think it was a last resort thing though.

Walsh did the same thing with Drouin in TB and Shea Weber I think.

Originally Posted by Bingo

Exactly ... this is the Walsh playbook. It's not a Calgary thing.

And that situation turned out to be roses in the end.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Man you guys just don't give up.

It's a good thing to shoot near the goalie more often than your teammates. It forces a save from in close, it creates rebounds and is generally what any coach at any level wants.

There has yet to be an argument in this year long debate that suggests otherwise.

He doesn't finish, and with that it's a toss up for the best fit on the second line, but a player getting good looks is a good thing in any level of hockey.

Imo, that we can all agree he doesn't finish makes it anything but a toss up.

That's why scoring more goals.on less opportunity is better than less goals.in more opportunity.

It's why transplant and I think it's pretty cut and dry why one player should be in one spot.and the other in a different one.

Guys that produce actual goals and assists are better than guys who dont.

[Hockeyguy15]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

And that situation turned out to be roses in the end.

Well TB got Sergachev and Nashville got Subban.

So basically it means we have to trade Frolik to Montreal for Gallagher or something.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Some good insight here but I think you've made a miscalculation in a couple.if points.

The first is, the jmoact of injuries. Frolik has appat been dealing with an ankle.sprain, an injury likely to decrease the quality of his minutes.

I don't think the sleight is coming from reduced PK minutes, I think it directly has to do with playing his even stretch minutes with particular players, and playing as many of their minutes with them as possible.

It's about opportunity: playing with gaudreau provides you with better opportunities to score points, and playing with tkachuk does the same. I don't think there is any mystery why their appears to be a lot.of jockeying about who gets to play with tkahuk; because he's your best shot at producing points.

Bennett's agent sees dollar signs when he sees minutes with tkaxhuk. They are looking at a sub 1.5 mil short term deal in couple of months. Even 10 extra points might net Bennett an extra 500k.

Frolik sees the same thing. He has sacrificed a lot for this club, always comes into camp in excellent shape. I think the things about being a real pro are probably pretty accurate.

He earned his deal with Calgary though by being a 40 point player, and he's looking at two consecutive sub 30 point seasons. He needs to be in a situation to produce points 5-5, and if that situation isn't in Calgary with tkachuk, it will have to be elsewhere.

He's only 30. He's looking to sign his last or second last deal at the end of this contract. I can see why he may be getting impatient if he has said give me minutes or a trade and hasn't seen either.

I think when you look at Neal getting 13 minutes a great compared to froliks 10, you really have to consider whether the coach or the player is in the wrong here. To me, those are prime minutes being given to a player who is less effective at 100% than frolik is at 80%.

I think he has legitimate reason to be upset if he's getting less prime minutes than two guys he is outplaying on a nightly basis. There are millions of dollars on the line for him.

The issue, frankly, is Neal.

That's such an oversimplification of what's going on though. I actually agree, to date, Frolik is our 6th best forward.............or probably said more appropirately, our 4th best winger right now.

The way I see it, and SuperMatt's post sums it up nicely, there are a clear top 5 forwards on this team, Gaurdreau, Monahan, Lindholm, Tkachuk, Backlund. Then there's everyone else, and as stated above, I actually think Frolik gives us the most consistent option as the #6 given its a wing spot to fill.

But it's not like it's hard to understand why the coach might be trying other things when you look at the options. Even when Frolik is playing well, the 3M isn't the ideal 2nd line, especially offensively. The Flames brought in Lindholm and Neal in the offseason to deal with that...........and you are 100% correct Neal hasn't held up his end of the bargain. But is it really that crazy to suggest that even though we are halfway through the season the Flames might still be trying to get Neal going. He's not even a season removed from being a legit Top 6 forward in this league (and a clearly better offensive player than Frolik over their careers to date), that if he did get it going would make the Flames infinetly better. And we also don't have to look much further than Hamonic (I get it, different position, different age) to see that sometimes it takes time to find fit and game on a new club.

Then we have Bennett, who brings something to table that Frolik doesn't that team sorley needs in edge and physical, and also while we might not like the stat to back it up and we are certainly getting impatient with his development, still shows flashes of potentially being able to take his offensive game to a level above Frolik. True, he's not delivering that close to enough, but when you combine it with the edge he brings, how hard really is it to understand why the team is trying it.

Last you Janko and Ryan, who different points in career, different salaries, but they both also do something Frolik doesn't, win and take faceoffs. This is affording them more special teams opportunities than Frolik. Even if you want to nit pick Ryan on the PP, the answer in taking Ryan off likely isn't adding Frolik, it's putting Anderson at the point with his shot.

So at the end of the day, Frolik is getting all bent out of shape because the new depth on the team has given the Flames options to work with to try and improve the top 6, where as he used to get one of those last 2 spots in the top 6 by default.

You called this unprecidented action in one of your posts. I agree, it's pretty extreme, but when you look at what's going on with the Flames, there is nothing remotely extreme enough to warrant this reaction from Frolik. I get WHY he's upset, but really, his PK time is down because he doesn't take faceoffs and we have other options, and the team got deeper so they are TRYING, i'll agree so far unsuccessfully to replace Frolik with a more offensively effective grouping on the second line.

I mean we are 3 months into the season, he has another year under contract and he's already lost his patience in playing behind Neal or Bennett sometimes that he's resorted to this? If this team wasn't winning you could maybe say something is rotten in the room, but seems like everyone else seems to be managing, so this is 100% on Frolik and his lack of resilience in the face of adversity.

[sempuki]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Frolik for Talbot?

Smith and Frolik for Spooner, Talbot and a 2nd?

I'd do Smith and Frolik for Talbot alone. I feel like he's better than he's been playing and and could just need to play in front of a D that's not a tire fire. Tre was at one point trying to a acquire Talbot if rumors are to be believed.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by sempuki

I'd do Smith and Frolik for Talbot alone. I feel like he's better than he's been playing and and could just need to play in front of a D that's not a tire fire. Tre was at one point trying to a acquire Talbot if rumors are to be believed.

Why would the Oilers?
Frolik is an effective player but it's not the type of asset they are looking for, including because of their own cap situation.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Imo, that we can all agree he doesn't finish makes it anything but a toss up.

That's why scoring more goals.on less opportunity is better than less goals.in more opportunity.

It's why transplant and I think it's pretty cut and dry why one player should be in one spot.and the other in a different one.

Guys that produce actual goals and assists are better than guys who dont.

Great but their actual production is a toss up too.

1.56 pts / 60 vs 1.41 pts / 60 five on five is the equivalent of about 2 points over the course of a season.

They are dead even in expected goals, CF% and production. Bennett has an edge in chance creation which you guys hate, so fine ignore that ... but they're still a toss up.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

So at the end of the day, Frolik is getting all bent out of shape because the new depth on the team has given the Flames options to work with to try and improve the top 6, where as he used to get one of those last 2 spots in the top 6 by default.

And this is the big thing. He needs to accept that there are more options on this team now and he's not the sure fire 2nd liner he was last year.

At this point in his career Frolik is likely a 2nd line player on a bad team, but more of a 3rd line player on a good team.

I don't know about the rest of you guys but if I'm a GM on a contending team and I see Frolik and his agent whining about ice time while playing for a 1st place team I'm probably not lining up to add him to my locker room with a $4.3M cap hit - especially since on a good team he's ideally a 3rd liner which is how he's being used here.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

To combat the vagueness of information out there, allow me to repost something I wrote a few days ago about Frolik's scoring this season.

First off, excellent job on the research. Probably very time consuming.

But at the end of the day, for me, I don’t really care how goals are being scored by the team’s depth players. Beggars cant be choosers. I’ll take the goals as they are because as long as they’re happening, then it counts on the board.

Secondly, I’m surprised that Frolik’s goals are even being analyzed to such an extent. I mean, I don’t see any videos on Neal’s goals as they haven’t exactly been impressive. Only 1 legitimately nice one that I can think of.

Lastly, goal scoring isn’t even Frolik’s strong suit. It’s the intangibles that he brings to the table that I appreciate. His speed, pressure on the forecheck, battle level, defensive awareness, commitment to playing the right way, excellent practice habits. These are the little things that can help the team win games especially in the playoffs. To just trade him for nothing makes this team worse off IMO. He’s the only guy in that locker room with a Stanley Cup ring, he has my respect for the way he plays and the contributions he makes to the team overall.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

First off, excellent job on the research. Probably very time consuming.

But at the end of the day, for me, I don’t really care how goals are being scored by the team’s depth players. Beggars cant be choosers. I’ll take the goals as they are because as long as they’re happening, then it counts on the board.

Secondly, I’m surprised that Frolik’s goals are even being analyzed to such an extent. I mean, I don’t see any videos on Neal’s goals as they haven’t exactly been impressive. Only 1 legitimately nice one that I can think of.

Lastly, goal scoring isn’t even Frolik’s strong suit. It’s the intangibles that he brings to the table that I appreciate. His speed, pressure on the forecheck, battle level, defensive awareness, commitment to playing the right way, excellent practice habits. These are the little things that can help the team win games especially in the playoffs. To just trade him for nothing makes this team worse off IMO. He’s the only guy in that locker room with a Stanley Cup ring, he has my respect for the way he plays and the contributions he makes to the team overall.

Totally agree. This is why this is frustrating, and I also hope BT doesn't just trade him for nothing, but you do get what's going on right now is Frolik asking to be moved right? Well put more accurately, his asking to be moved or have complete control over how much ice time he gets (which will never happen and can't happen and have the coach maintain control of the locker room).

I'd prefer to have Frolik's intangibles around, but he clearly no longer wants to be here. We also need to make sure we don't over index on how important his intangibles are. The Flames played well with out him, and have lots of players that do the same things as Frolik well, just sucks to likely have to lose a very consistent performer for what will amount to less than what he's worth on the team because he's having a tough time accepting a different role this year, but it is what it is.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Great but their actual production is a toss up too.

1.56 pts / 60 vs 1.41 pts / 60 five on five is the equivalent of about 2 points over the course of a season.

They are dead even in expected goals, CF% and production. Bennett has an edge in chance creation which you guys hate, so fine ignore that ... but they're still a toss up.

What are these stats? Are they isolating for frolik getting 10 minutes a night in the fourth line or are they isolating their time with tkachuk?

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

I think we can stop micro analyzing statistics. There is no doubt, one can make a strong case for Frolik as the #6 best forward on this team. He's not that by a wide margin, he's clearly not as important to the team as Gaurdreau, Monahan, Lindholm, Tkachuk and Backlund, but I think a very fair argument can be made that he's the 6th best. We should just peace out on that and stop worrying about what stats are being manipulated or not.

People who think what Frolik is doing is just fine because he's not firmly getting the 6th most ice time on the team aren't going to swayed because a stat can be pulled that might question whether he's the 6th best forward or not.

People who don't like what he's doing aren't going to be swayed if one can pull a stat that shows he slightly better than Bennett or Ryan.

People on the pro Frolik side of this are looking for reasons to justify the behaviour, and can find data to back up the argument that says he's not getting the ice time that reflects exactly where he should be, for them case closed.

People on the other side, actually don't care if he's getting what he "deserves" or not, it's about the "how" he's doing it, so no data about effectiveness will change those opinions either.

[Hey Connor, It's Mess]

I really can't imagine this is a popular situation in the dressing room.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

Totally agree. This is why this is frustrating, and I also hope BT doesn't just trade him for nothing, but you do get what's going on right now is Frolik asking to be moved right? Well put more accurately, his asking to be moved or have complete control over how much ice time he gets (which will never happen and can't happen and have the coach maintain control of the locker room).

I'd prefer to have Frolik's intangibles around, but he clearly no longer wants to be here. We also need to make sure we don't over index on how important his intangibles are. The Flames played well with out him, and have lots of players that do the same things as Frolik well, just sucks to likely have to lose a very consistent performer for what will amount to less than what he's worth on the team because he's having a tough time accepting a different role this year, but it is what it is.

Until he asks for a trade or Treliving trades him, I’d keep him and deal with everything in th summer. This situation was essentially inevitable that eventually egos would get in the way. Treliving had to have known that altering half his roster and making the team deeper was going to ruffle some feathers in that locker room.

To me, it comes down to the playoff run in itself. If the Flames are looking at making a deep run, making the team more shallow isn’t the solution. Contenders are always looking at adding, not subtracting. If I was Treliving I’d have a talk with Frolik about sticking with it for the rest of the season and then if it’s still necessary, trading him in the offseason where he’ll have a whole year to set himself up for another contract.

I just foresee the problem in which if the Flames do trade Frolik away and if the team loses in the playoffs, then you’ll here people complaining that they shouldn’t have traded Frolik away. I would think that Treliving would want to avoid those questions. But we’ll see what happens. If he’s traded, I won’t like it. But this messy situation is on the coaches and upper management to remedy.

[RedHawk12]

Allan Walsh is just doing his job here. He's an agent; his one job is to make his client money.

Have to remember Frolik is on the last year of his contract and looking for employment next season. It will probably be his last big contract, if he gets it. So Frolik can either end his career with a 5-year, 20-25M deal (kinda similar to Neal), or he can bounce around on a couple of 1.5M 1-year deals and then fizzle out of the league. The way he's being used right now, the latter seems pretty likely.

Frolik is not being re-signed here, and certainly not for 20-25M on a multi-year deal. Walsh is just trying to put Frolik in a better position to get a GM to bite and pay him on July 1. If it's here, great. If it's having his client plays 20 minutes a night on a bad team and put up great numbers so a GM will be dumb enough to give him the 20-25M on July 1, so be it. It's just business.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by RedHawk12

Allan Walsh is just doing his job here. He's an agent; his one job is to make his client money.

Have to remember Frolik is on the last year of his contract and looking for employment next season. It will probably be his last big contract, if he gets it. So Frolik can either end his career with a 5-year, 20-25M deal (kinda similar to Neal), or he can bounce around on a couple of 1.5M 1-year deals and then fizzle out of the league. The way he's being used right now, the latter seems pretty likely.

Frolik is not being re-signed here, and certainly not for 20-25M on a multi-year deal. Walsh is just trying to put Frolik in a better position to get a GM to bite and pay him on July 1. If it's here, great. If it's having his client plays 20 minutes a night on a bad team and put up great numbers so a GM will be dumb enough to give him the 20-25M on July 1, so be it. It's just business.

Frolik has one more year left after this one.

[Stay Golden]

Too bad Frolik agent is poking his nose in, perhaps this has a bit to with Frolik's agent seeing Neal getting unearned bumps up the roster to get his ass going and also the waste of space he is on the pp. I like Frolik this is an unfortunate situation.

[AC]

Originally Posted by RedHawk12

Allan Walsh is just doing his job here. He's an agent; his one job is to make his client money.

Have to remember Frolik is on the last year of his contract and looking for employment next season.

Nope, next year is the last of his current contract.

https://www.capfriendly.com/players/michael-frolik

2019-2020 $4.3M

[RedHawk12]

Originally Posted by AC

Nope, next year is the last of his current contract.

https://www.capfriendly.com/players/michael-frolik

2019-2020 $4.3M

Whoa really. Could have sworn he was a UFA. My bad, should have done a quick search first. Thanks.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by RedHawk12

Allan Walsh is just doing his job here. He's an agent; his one job is to make his client money.

Have to remember Frolik is on the last year of his contract and looking for employment next season. It will probably be his last big contract, if he gets it. So Frolik can either end his career with a 5-year, 20-25M deal (kinda similar to Neal), or he can bounce around on a couple of 1.5M 1-year deals and then fizzle out of the league. The way he's being used right now, the latter seems pretty likely.

Frolik is not being re-signed here, and certainly not for 20-25M on a multi-year deal. Walsh is just trying to put Frolik in a better position to get a GM to bite and pay him on July 1. If it's here, great. If it's having his client plays 20 minutes a night on a bad team and put up great numbers so a GM will be dumb enough to give him the 20-25M on July 1, so be it. It's just business.

A) Frolik has another year left after this one

B) Frolik signing a 5 year, $20-25mil contract is absolutely bonkers.