[News] Jan 3 UPD: Frolik's agent complains about his ice time

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Some fans seem to badly want to believe there are personal agendas, or hidden motives in play.

I am convinced that Peters badly wants to win each an every night while at the same time Treliving is also mindful of the organization's long term success. It doesn't mean every decision is perfect and they're above criticism. You may not agree with their rationale, it could even be wrong, but it might be worth spending a few minutes trying to understand what they may be trying to accomplish before dismissing it.

I also believe that how guys practice plays a bigger part than any of us realize and we simply have no insight into that either.

Anyway the second PP unit doesn't look good. I don't think the talent is there to make it great. It's a little different scenario when you're setting up in the zone and handling the puck vs. scoring on rushes and broken plays.

I don't see Frolik as a guy that really plays that kind of set up game personally.

The possibility here is Czarnik, who hasn't been good. But he can handle the puck and maybe he has decent vision to help run a PP. He needs to prove he is not a total liability 5v5.

Well stated. Yes.
Just because the second unit isn't going well doesn't mean Frolik is the guy to solve that. In fact I'm quite sure he isn't.

[Duffalufagus]

the fact that we are even discussing putting Frolik on the 2nd pp unit is a sad indictment of how awful that unit has been.

[dammage79]

I've been thinking about this a little bit. But I think where Frolik has lost minutes is on the PK. Janko, Ryan, Backs and Lindholm along with a really good up and comer Hathaway have really eliminated Fro from special teams all together. I can get not getting PP minutes because Peters has a steadfast belief he needs Ryan RHS on the unit. Even then I think that andersson should be in line for PP2 time before Fro. So essentially Frolik has been widdled down to regular 5v5 minutes with no room for him anywhere else.

If I was Fro, I'm not pissed about Neal I'm pissed I lost out to good PK time from the like of Hathaway or Ryan. Janko, Lindholm and Backs are too good.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Over his entire career why has he never really been leaned on as a PP guy?
Is the argument here really that Frolik should be on the PP. What attributes does he have that make you believe he'd be effective there?

More effective than some players currently there? Sure. He fights hard for the puck, has the skill to make plays and can sometimes score. So....better than Neal.

I also cant understand Ryan's current place over Andersson. When was the last time the 2nd unit scored? Peters has had no problem shortening the bench and quickly adjusting other lines when they aren't working. Why is PP2 so stuck?

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by Karl

I really have to wonder what it is that Peters likes about Ryan's game enough that makes him think that Ryan is still any reasonable option on the PP.

I think if you look at what's going on objectively, it's actually not hard to see what's going on with Frolik's ice time.

- He's never been used by the Flames much on the PP, even prior to this year, and likely for good reason. He doesn't take face offs (something Ryan can do) which is key to puck possession, and the way he generates offense when he does doesn't scream PP specialist either. It's not like he's an amazing front net presence or has a blistering shot or dynamic zone entries (and that's not a critique), he's just a smart hockey player that gets goals by being in the right places doing the right things on the ice. Frolik not getting PP time isn't a shock, nor is it a new because of Peter's thing. It's fair to say some of the other options we've been using on PP unit 2 aren't delivering, but not sure that means they should be sticking Frolik there, it's not his gig and you can at least see what they are hoping to get out of Bennett (front net precense), Neal (shot) and Ryan (faceoffs) on that 2nd unit.

- Where he's lost some ice time this year is his old spot on the PK. He's down to 6th on the PK in total minutes for forwards. With the exception of Hathaway (who'd been great on the PK) all the players in front of him bring one key thing to the table that he doesn't, face offs. Again, we struggled mightily in previous seasons because we never start with the puck due to poor face off %, which is also key for a good PK. Not hard to see and very hard to critique Peter's for running out Lindholm, Backlund, Ryan and Janko as the top 4 forwards on our PK. Having two people on the ice to take draws is an amazing option that we didn't have last year prior to BT going out and driving up our face off options with acquisitions of Lindholm and Ryan. On the PK, he's lost his ice time mostly due to more flexible options a faceoffs being brought in, and I'm not sure you can critique it.........it's a good thing for this team.

- The last place he's likely upset is his displacement from the 3M line. This one I at least get from his perspective (but don't condone his actions). I understand why Peter's has experimented with different options with Backs and Chucky. Trying to evolve that line into more of an offensive threat has to be a goal of this team. But 3 months in, I also think it's fair to say, the options tried there have not resulted in a more effective line offensively or otherwise than when Frolik plays there. Should the coach and management keep looking for other options to put there for the good of the team, I think so. Should they keep using the 3M line most of the time until they find that solution, I also think so. Should this factor be enough for Frolik to take to the media and start alienating himself and his team mates.............I really think not.

[Karl]

Originally Posted by dammage79

I've been thinking about this a little bit. But I think where Frolik has lost minutes is on the PK. Janko, Ryan, Backs and Lindholm along with a really good up and comer Hathaway have really eliminated Fro from special teams all together. I can get not getting PP minutes because Peters has a steadfast belief he needs Ryan RHS on the unit. Even then I think that andersson should be in line for PP2 time before Fro. So essentially Frolik has been widdled down to regular 5v5 minutes with no room for him anywhere else.

If I was Fro, I'm not pissed about Neal I'm pissed I lost out to good PK time from the like of Hathaway or Ryan. Janko, Lindholm and Backs are too good.

And that's a belief I cannot come to grips with. Rasmus Andersson should be in Ryan's PP spot.

Ryan IMO should be behind everyone except for Hathaway and Dube in terms of getting PP duty.

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by Karl

And that's a belief I cannot come to grips with. Rasmus Andersson should be in Ryan's PP spot.

Ryan IMO should be behind everyone except for Hathaway and Dube in terms of getting PP duty.

Dube could use some limited PP time IMO. Give him more space to use his creativity.

[kermitology]

Originally Posted by Karl

And that's a belief I cannot come to grips with. Rasmus Andersson should be in Ryan's PP spot.

Ryan IMO should be behind everyone except for Hathaway and Dube in terms of getting PP duty.

This! I cannot for the life of me figure out why Andersson isn't on the PP.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by oldschoolcalgary

right, its all pond hockey out there, no system, no structure, no line matching no analysis ... just the top line out there doing their own thing, free wheeling.

gotcha.

Being intentionally obtuse? No further comment.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

He only scored when he is in the top 6. The 3M line has not been the same since their first year together. They get a quick burst when Frolik has returned from scratches and he has piled up his points in those games.

I am not running the guy out of town but I don’t like this move by his agent (that he obviously consented to) and do not thinks Frolik brings enough value at $4.3M. If there is a team that wants to pay an asset to take him on then Treliving should take a look at it.

Obviously there is something with Frolik’s game that Peters doesn’t like so if this is not going to work then both parties should move on. The Flames shouldn’t do it for anything though and I trust Treliving will get a reasonable return when he eventually makes the move

This is even more of feather under his cap. If Frolik is the only one producing with the 2nd line and Bennett, Neal, Czarnik and etc can't, then what's the rush in trading him? Who else is going to play with Backlund and Tkachuk?

I'd trade Neal, Stone or Ryan before I'd ship Frolik out of town. What his agent did was obviously unprofessional. But that's what agents get paid to do, support their client. Frolik is ultimately a character guy and I don't think the rest of his teammates would hold it against him which is the most important thing about a situation like that.

Peter's might not like Frolik. But at some point, he's going to have to abandon his get Neal going agenda because if he's not scoring, which he isn't, then he's a liability. Frolik should then pick up those extra minutes and I'm sure he'll make the most of them like he has been doing this season.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

If your point is to grind your axe about Neal then grind away.
My point was that the narrative that Frolik isn't able to "crack the lineup" is hyperbole

Lots of hyperbole and hopefully we can all use our common sense to work with it

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by dammage79

I've been thinking about this a little bit. But I think where Frolik has lost minutes is on the PK. Janko, Ryan, Backs and Lindholm along with a really good up and comer Hathaway have really eliminated Fro from special teams all together. I can get not getting PP minutes because Peters has a steadfast belief he needs Ryan RHS on the unit. Even then I think that andersson should be in line for PP2 time before Fro. So essentially Frolik has been widdled down to regular 5v5 minutes with no room for him anywhere else.

If I was Fro, I'm not pissed about Neal I'm pissed I lost out to good PK time from the like of Hathaway or Ryan. Janko, Lindholm and Backs are too good.

Totally agree. And you can't really question those decisions - the PKers have been fantastic.
So Fro can be pissed but the results speak for themselves.

[Karl]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

I think if you look at what's going on objectively, it's actually not hard to see what's going on with Frolik's ice time.

- He's never been used by the Flames much on the PP, even prior to this year, and likely for good reason. He doesn't take face offs (something Ryan can do) which is key to puck possession, and the way he generates offense when he does doesn't scream PP specialist either. It's not like he's an amazing front net presence or has a blistering shot or dynamic zone entries (and that's not a critique), he's just a smart hockey player that gets goals by being in the right places doing the right things on the ice. Frolik not getting PP time isn't a shock, nor is it a new because of Peter's thing. It's fair to say some of the other options we've been using on PP unit 2 aren't delivering, but not sure that means they should be sticking Frolik there, it's not his gig and you can at least see what they are hoping to get out of Bennett (front net precense), Neal (shot) and Ryan (faceoffs) on that 2nd unit.

- Where he's lost some ice time this year is his old spot on the PK. He's down to 6th on the PK in total minutes for forwards. With the exception of Hathaway (who'd been great on the PK) all the players in front of him bring one key thing to the table that he doesn't, face offs. Again, we struggled mightily in previous seasons because we never start with the puck due to poor face off %, which is also key for a good PK. Not hard to see and very hard to critique Peter's for running out Lindholm, Backlund, Ryan and Janko as the top 4 forwards on our PK. Having two people on the ice to take draws is an amazing option that we didn't have last year prior to BT going out and driving up our face off options with acquisitions of Lindholm and Ryan. On the PK, he's lost his ice time mostly due to more flexible options a faceoffs being brought in, and I'm not sure you can critique it.........it's a good thing for this team.

- The last place he's likely upset is his displacement from the 3M line. This one I at least get from his perspective (but don't condone his actions). I understand why Peter's has experimented with different options with Backs and Chucky. Trying to evolve that line into more of an offensive threat has to be a goal of this team. But 3 months in, I also think it's fair to say, the options tried there have not resulted in a more effective line offensively or otherwise than when Frolik plays there. Should the coach and management keep looking for other options to put there for the good of the team, I think so. Should they keep using the 3M line most of the time until they find that solution, I also think so. Should this factor be enough for Frolik to take to the media and start alienating himself and his team mates.............I really think not.

Ryan may be a smart player but faceoffs aside his offensive game generally sucks.

Although his faceoff ability is of use, there are other guys who are not appreciably worse at faceoffs than Ryan. His great faceoff ability is not enough to have him on the PP over other forwards because he's not talented enough offensively.

Why not use Backlund for the faceoffs and Put Rasmus on the point for PP2 instead of Ryan?

[neo45]

Do players even complain about a lack of penalty kill time?

Power play yes, obviously. And it’s ridiculous that Neal is getting more 5v5 time than ANYBODY. But I doubt Frolik is salty about missing out on going through grueling penalty kills multiple times per game. He wants to play with Backlund and Tkachuk 5v5.

I think we have 4 better PK options anyways for forwards.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Karl

Ryan may be a smart player but faceoffs aside his offensive game sucks.

Although his faceoff ability is of use, there are other guys who are not appreciably worse at faceoffs than Ryan. His great faceoff ability is not enough to have him on the PP over other forwards because he's not talented enough offensively.

Why not use Backlund for the faceoffs and Put Rasmus on the point for PP2 instead of Ryan?

I'd use Jankowski over Backlund's on faceoffs.

Rasmus isn't on the PP because coaches are like minded and not many use two D. I agree it doesn't make sense always.

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by neo45

Do players even complain about a lack of penalty kill time?

Power play yes, obviously. And it’s ridiculous that Neal is getting more 5v5 time than ANYBODY. But I doubt Frolik is salty about missing out on going through grueling penalty kills multiple times per game. He wants to play with Backlund and Tkachuk 5v5.

I think we have 4 better PK options anyways for forwards.

Counts as playing time in General. And a role he has relished since his CHI days. So yeah I can totally see him being miffed he's been jumped over since he was PK1 for all of the time he has been a Flame. No special teams of any kind limits an impact you have on a game.

[flamesfever]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Take away his empty netters and he's still scoring at a 0.24 clip, or a 20 goal pace without PP time and bottom 6 minutes. Realistically, no one should be criticizing his goal scoring this season because his rate even with out his empty netters would only be behind the top 4 in Gaudreau, Monahan, Lindholm and Tkachuk. With more ice time, he'd probably have even more as well. He also makes the 2nd line complete as they seem to play at their best as the 3M line.

Personally, I'd only explore a trade in the summer if the team needs the cap space. I could see Dube being his eventual replacement as they bring a lot of similar elements, but I'm not sure Dube will be ready for that role next season.

I think Frolik's defensive ability and chemistry with Backlund are the most important aspect of keeping him on the team. IMO our GA and losses would increase if he is traded, especially in view of our goalie situation.

I agree, if he is to be traded, it should not be until next summer.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by Karl

Ryan may be a smart player but faceoffs aside his offensive game generally sucks.

Although his faceoff ability is of use, there are other guys who are not appreciably worse at faceoffs than Ryan. His great faceoff ability is not enough to have him on the PP over other forwards because he's not talented enough offensively.

Why not use Backlund for the faceoffs and Put Rasmus on the point for PP2 instead of Ryan?

Sure, I'm down with that although I think it's the desire to have 2 face off options should one get tossed.

But also, what does putting Rasmus there have to do with Frolik?

[Karl]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

Sure, I'm down with that although I think it's the desire to have 2 face off options should one get tossed.

But also, what does putting Rasmus there have to do with Frolik?

Nothing at all.

What I'm saying is Rasmus on the point for PP2, Backlund (or Janko as GioforPM suggested) for the faceoffs and Ryan can get all his icetime through 5-on-5 and PK.

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

I think Frolik's defensive ability and chemistry with Backlund are the most important aspect of keeping him on the team. IMO our GA and losses would increase if he is traded, especially in view of our goalie situation.

I agree, if he is to be traded, it should not be until next summer.

Thing is, we were just fine without Frolik while he was out for how many games? he's just not as essential to team success as he has been over the past two seasons. Does that mean he sucks? No. just that there really is limited space for him and I think he knows it. Hence the Agent doing his stage show for his player.